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[AllenDeneau]

Hey all, I'm looking for some input as to how to best configure a particular installed system...

***This is for a Church and if it should be in the HOW forum please feel free to move it, I just thought I'd get more responses here as this board sees a lot more traffic, thanks***

I know how I'd most likely configure the system but my way may not be the best for an install or for anyone else for that matter, so to keep me from "redirecting" or "persuading" the suggestions, I'm going to not say anything for now as I'm open to scrapping my way of doing things for a different or better way...

This is for a Church and the system is currently in use and has been for at least a year or more...
Here's the system I'm referring to:
Full stage with @ 30 inputs
Roland M 400 V-Mixer with 40 channel stagebox
DBX Driverack 4800
Roland M48 personal mixers
2 wedge monitor mixes
Main room with a mono 2 way system with aux fed subs
Foyer with identical mix as main room program...

My main focus is what do you recommend for the foyer sound configuration?

Unfortunately I haven't been privy to see how the I/O's are configured on the 4800 in terms of how many of each and what are they driving. I know how the board is sending but I am just not sure what happens after the signal leaves the board...

here's my best guess, the input channels may not be the exact inputs used on the 4800 but it'll work for this explanation.
Input 1 - Main mix for main room
Input 2 - Aux sub feed for main room
Input 3 - Band mix from aux for foyer
Input 4 - Pastor mix from aux for foyer

I asked a bit about the configuration and the person who was in charge of setting it up at the time admitted he doesn't know anything about sound and did what he could figure out and thought was easiest for the "non-skilled mixers". To me, they've made even more work and cumbersome work, at that, by having the band and pastor on different feeds. I'll need to look real close at the configuration but, it appears that the auxes aren't post fader either so all changes must be made on the aux channels themselves or the "master fader" for the foyer feeds...

As you've guessed, the issue is either it's too  loud, too soft or not the right things in the mix in the foyer or the mix just is just plain ol bad....

Ok, I said I wouldn't do this but here's my thoughts on how I think I'd set it up.

All channels into the board and the main mix to 4800 input 1 and the aux fed subs to 4800 input 2.

I don't have much time with the 4800 but, I believe it's a matrix I/O configuration meaning I can take any or all of the inputs and send them to one or more of the outputs correct? So I could take inputs 1 & 2 and sum them together for output 8 for the foyer correct? Then on the output, I can dial in the output level, crossover, eq, limiter etc.... as to not overdrive the foyers in-ceiling speakers correct?

If the above is accurate, I'd send the main mix on input 1 to output 1 to drive the mains in the sanctuary and then input 2 to output 2 to drive the subs in the sanctuary and then sum inputs 1 & 2 to 1 of the remaining 6 outputs for the foyer with a correct eq and levels set with a bit of smooth compression to keep it from getting too loud or too soft BUT, it will mirror the mix in the sanctuary..

The other option I'd think would be ok, is to use one of the available auxes and create a full mix, including the pastors, and be sure to have the aux on post fade. That mix can then drive an input and output on the 4800 for the foyer. The Roland M 400 has built in eq, both parametric and a patchable geq, as well as limiting on the aux out. For the more experienced mixers, I personally like setting up zones like this when I'm working for myself so I have more control, this should be manageable and with the processing minus the crossover and zone eq, it's easy to keep an eye on the mix for the foyer from the board...

So for you who have experience in installed systems and systems that have zones that need to mirror the main rooms, what would you suggest with the gear we have?

Like I said, I know how I usually do this BUT, that's not even remotely saying it's right or the best configuration so I'm looking for some help in determining the best approach so I can present it to the pastor and see if we can fix the foyer sound issue.

Thanks in advance..

[Brad Weber]

I personally like to use a dedicated aux send for things like Foyer feeds as listeners there are not hearing the same thing that is heard in the main space.  They don't hear any natural sound from instruments, the speakers are different and they have different acoustical environments.  You may also have ambient microphones or similar that are included in the Foyer mix but not in the main space mix.

Whether the aux is pre or post fader often depends on what simply works best.  Many channel sends probably can be post-fader but you may have some that work best pre-fader.

If you are making changes and the goal is truly easiest for non-skilled mixers, you might also want to reconsider the aux fed subs.  There are definitely potential advantages to that approach but it does take some mixing skill to use effectively.

[Tom Young]

I concur with you and Brad and would prefer that a dedicated post-fader/EQ aux be used for the foyer. Brad's reasons for doing this are spot-on.

I hardly ever have problems witn aux-fed subs and perhaps because I make it very clear that the aux levels (for the few inputs assigned to this system) are set to a "calibrated" point (and left there) and that this is not an effects system.

[Brad Weber]

I hardly ever have problems witn aux-fed subs and perhaps because I make it very clear that the aux levels (for the few inputs assigned to this system) are set to a "calibrated" point (and left there) and that this is not an effects system.

To which I agree for systems that do not change, but if input assignments or use change (e.g. the input used for the bass for one service is then used for a vocal mic for the next service) then it can add another level of complexity.  Of course with a digital mixer and scene recall then even some of that can be mitigated if those different scenarios are correctly setup and saved as scenes.

[AllenDeneau]

thanks guys, I appreciate the info. Sometimes just because it's how "we" do something doesn't make it right or the best option so I thought I'd ask for ideas.

Sadly, this is really only the tip of the iceberg for the issues we have, IMO, but fairly easy to fix as well..

Our stage plot, thankfully, rarely changes in terms of what types of inputs are patched into where. We do have different musicians from week to week but the instrument type doesn't change. Say Johnny plays guitar this week but Mike plays next, they'll use their own guitar and plug into the same channel so that makes it helpful.

Our worhsip leadership team, which also heads up sound, doesn't know anything about sound and they'll readily admit it so to them sometimes the easiest thing to do isn't the best or even a good thing to do.

I'm just starting on this church's team and during our "new member" meeting, we were basically told to not touch anything but faders

Last Wednesday was my first day "shadowing" and I noticed a number of issues just from watching, such as microphones being swapped from person to person and back with no regard to gain or eq or that they even even went back to the original persons.

A typical service may have person A on orange wireless, then person b gets it, then it goes back to person d all of which have different voices etc... I asked why we don't set up and save a preset for the "typical" players so when they have a certain mic, we can just recall their settings and away we go... The answer, we want things to be the same each week?!?

Since I'm new, and the "pro" is the son of one of the pastors, I have to tread lightly as to not make them feel like everything the have done is wrong. In reality it isn't, but there are just some sound live mixing principles that have been ignored. Poor mic/monitor placement, no sound check, band and choir don't practice together, gain structure is not set, confusing board layout, etc.... All pretty easy fixes but, I'll have to curb my enthusiasm and help where I can...

I won't even go into the "extra" sub mixes of drums, choir etc... that are patched out from one of the boards XLR outs and right back into it's input then assigned to a channel fader and the phase issues it's causing...

We aren't allowed to use scenes or even user layers so again, thankfully all inputs stay where they should be each service. I want to be respectful of their desieres but it also will be hard hearing something or seeing something that's wrong and not be able to fix it..

Anyway, the aux fed subs haven't seemed to be an issue with the exception of the overall system tuning. The subs, IMO, are very bloated and non-defined but the inputs don't seem to change so that's good.

I personally like to use a dedicated aux send for things like Foyer feeds as listeners there are not hearing the same thing that is heard in the main space.  They don't hear any natural sound from instruments, the speakers are different and they have different acoustical environments.  You may also have ambient microphones or similar that are included in the Foyer mix but not in the main space mix.

I agree 100%, and if it were just me mixing I would absolutely do it that way, but we honestly have people on the board that have never mixed sound before and that, IMO, can only lead to their confusion, maybe not...

I do like that method but I'm still wondering if we couldn't make a pretty reasonable reproduction of the main sanctuary mix just by mirroring the main mix and with use of the 4800's filters and dynamics, taylor it pretty close yet still work withing the limits of the foyer system?

Whether the aux is pre or post fader often depends on what simply works best.  Many channel sends probably can be post-fader but you may have some that work best pre-fader.

My thought for post fader would be that the foyer mix would then be pretty transparent for the newbie operator and when they made an adjustment on the board, the foyer would track along as well.. Of course the system for the foyer would have to be properly crossed over, levels set for input as well as eq'd and limited.. Which should be done anyway.

I hardly ever have problems witn aux-fed subs and perhaps because I make it very clear that the aux levels (for the few inputs assigned to this system) are set to a "calibrated" point (and left there) and that this is not an effects system.

That's a great point and way of expressing it's DON'T TOUCH policy. Thinking about it, I am not sure many of the guys even know what aux fed subs are... The guy I was shadowing last week didn't seem as if he really understood it as we were tracking down a confusing input patch and going through all the inputs/outputs and settings... Maybe he did, not sure, but it appeared he didn't.. Not judging, just making an observation..

Brad, how often do you get near Nashville? I'd love to get you to take a look at the system..

[David Morison]

Ok, I said I wouldn't do this but here's my thoughts on how I think I'd set it up.

All channels into the board and the main mix to 4800 input 1 and the aux fed subs to 4800 input 2.

So I could take inputs 1 & 2 and sum them together for output 8 for the foyer correct? Then on the output, I can dial in the output level, crossover, eq, limiter etc.... as to not overdrive the foyers in-ceiling speakers correct?

Only thing I've got to contribute is that ceiling speakers may not have the capacity to handle much sub, so including the Aux Sub input in your mix to foyer may overload them.
Remember those channels will already be present from your full range feed, so I wouldn't complicate or risk overloading the foyer ceiling speak's by including sub.
HTH,
David.

[Jonathan Johnson]

Allen, you're in a tough spot and I don't envy you. It appears to me that the problems your church has are mostly about technical ability. It sounds like your equipment is definitely adequate for the job, it's just not configured optimally. It sounds like deep down the others on your team know that it's not optimal, but their own pride -- or fear of doing something wrong -- limits their ability to seek and accept help.

Don't let your own pride force its way into their space. You're the new guy, and you haven't yet established the trust that you know what you're talking about. That trust will come in time. Don't become "that one guy" that everybody dreads seeing because he messes with their stuff every time. In the meantime, I think the best thing you can do is gradually suggest small changes, but at the same time you must carefully explain why those changes are necessary and how it will help. If your suggestions are not accepted, don't push the issue. You can teach, but your students must learn and understand concepts not just procedures. They need to learn why things are done the way they are, not because that's the way it's always been done. (It's one thing to know who fought whom and when in World War II; it's another thing to understand the human nature and desires that led to that conflict. Facts and figures can be learned by rote, but they are meaningless without understanding the context and relationships involved.)

In time, your team will be stronger. They will become more flexible. They will be able to resolve problems on their own, thinking and tweaking and building beyond just matching the knobs on the mixer to a predefined cut sheet. The goal is not to force them to do something your way, but give them the understanding they need to come up with your way themselves.

[AllenDeneau]

Only thing I've got to contribute is that ceiling speakers may not have the capacity to handle much sub, so including the Aux Sub input in your mix to foyer may overload them.
Remember those channels will already be present from your full range feed, so I wouldn't complicate or risk overloading the foyer ceiling speak's by including sub.
HTH,
David.

Great point David, didn't even think about them being in the main feed as well. I was just thinking I'd mix it in but use the eq and crossover to dial it down to a useable level but your idea is even easier, 1 channel

Allen, you're in a tough spot and I don't envy you. It appears to me that the problems your church has are mostly about technical ability. It sounds like your equipment is definitely adequate for the job, it's just not configured optimally. It sounds like deep down the others on your team know that it's not optimal, but their own pride -- or fear of doing something wrong -- limits their ability to seek and accept help.

Don't let your own pride force its way into their space. You're the new guy, and you haven't yet established the trust that you know what you're talking about. That trust will come in time. Don't become "that one guy" that everybody dreads seeing because he messes with their stuff every time. In the meantime, I think the best thing you can do is gradually suggest small changes, but at the same time you must carefully explain why those changes are necessary and how it will help. If your suggestions are not accepted, don't push the issue. You can teach, but your students must learn and understand concepts not just procedures. They need to learn why things are done the way they are, not because that's the way it's always been done. (It's one thing to know who fought whom and when in World War II; it's another thing to understand the human nature and desires that led to that conflict. Facts and figures can be learned by rote, but they are meaningless without understanding the context and relationships involved.)

In time, your team will be stronger. They will become more flexible. They will be able to resolve problems on their own, thinking and tweaking and building beyond just matching the knobs on the mixer to a predefined cut sheet. The goal is not to force them to do something your way, but give them the understanding they need to come up with your way themselves.

Great observation and point Jonathan. I do need to keep from being the bull in a china shop and do what I can, when I can, and where I can... I actually just read the article in Church Production mag about using your talents, for me or as intended, and it really echo what you're saying too. My wife also said the same thing and I do agree. As easy as a fix as it would be, I have to just accept it is how it is and when the opportunity comes up present solutions.

I appreciate everyones input, thanks.