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Author Topic: HDMI over IP  (Read 1893 times)

Eric Eskam

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HDMI over IP
« on: February 26, 2013, 11:28:03 am »

I recently came across these:  http://www.justaddpower.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=16&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=45

In looking at the technical specs and information for them they really impress me as they are doing a number of things right. Specifically:

1)  Being IP based, they leverage that to not only provide video over enhanced distance, but they also provide a "virtual matrix switch" capability where you can map any sender to any receiver in any combination.  Pretty neat - almost unlimited size video matrix switch!

2)  Local HDMI handshake.  That is, if I have a computer and a monitor and then insert these into the configuration, their are two HDMI handshakes - one between the computer and the sending unit and another between the receiving unit and the TV.  If I add a second computer, there is an HDMI handshake between that computer and it's sender.  What this all means is that when I switch from computer to computer, there is no roll!  Finally! (They demo this in their video)

3)  Multicast support.  If I'm sending from one computer to five remote displays it's only one packet on the network.  That means this stuff can actually scale.  It requires a managed ethernet switch, but good managed ethernet switches can be had under $500 all over the place (HP Procurve is becoming my fast favorite choice for the lifetime warranty, even though we currently have lots of netgear)

Overall I'm very impressed with what I'm reading and the demo's they provide, even if I take their "no latency" claims with a large grain of salt.  Now the "moment of truth" - does anyone have them deployed?  If so, how do you like them?  Do they really work as well as they claim?

I need to replace a few video extenders, and while these are about twice as expensive as decent traditional cat5 extenders - because they are IP based and with the matrix switch option I'm seriously thinking of getting a set of these to test with.  As we upgrade other equipment I would love to be able to migrate to these for all devices - the idea of our entire infrastructure being one big virtual matrix switch is VERY appealing.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, especially if someone has experience with them - good or bad.
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Brad Weber

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 02:24:49 pm »

Contact Ed Qualls at Just Add Power, he will usually be happy to answer any questions you have.

The way I understand the JAP systems work is that the transmitters convert the media signals to IP data packets.  Each transmitter is then setup on the network switch as a separate VLAN and you route signals by using the managed switch to select which VLAN each port associated with a receiver (and thus a destination) is assigned.  The receivers then convert the IP data streams back to audio and video signals.  So more each destination switching between the available networks rather than an actual matrix.  And none of the common issues with digital media switching because the switching is occurring at the IP network level rather than the actual media signals.  Because of this a lot of the work is in configuring and controlling the network switch.

I believe the Just Add Power systems address EDID at the transmitter and in the newer units I don't think they consider the EDID of the attached devices, whatever the transmitter defines is then what is delivered to the associated endpoints.  I believe the the transmitters have default EDID data although I am not sure what is the preferred resolution - I think either 1080p24 or 1080p60, but there is software to go in and delete some of the EDID options or select a different preferred resolution.  Because the EDID is independent of the attached displays you may have to apply a little planning and perhaps some tweaking in the field to find EDIDs that will work properly for all of the potential destinations.

Some latency is inherent in the conversion on either end as well as in the transmission.  Probably not a concern if you are distributing media to multiple rooms or similar but possibly a factor for production system, i-mag, etc. applications.

At one point the Just Add Power systems did have a significant switching delay, a result of the HDMI handshake, if you switched to a source that was not routed to anything and had gone idle.  One work around was apparently to add 'dummy' receivers so that no source was ever not routed to an output and thus they never went idle, I don't know if a more efficient fix has been developed.
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Caleb Dick

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 03:25:05 pm »

Also talk to SVSI about VoLANte.  Last I contacted both, JAP was just reselling cheap Far East products with high markup.  JAP stopped responding when I asked about this directly.
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Eric Eskam

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 12:25:33 pm »

Also talk to SVSI about VoLANte.

Thanks for the tip.  In a cursory look at their web site they seem light on the tech specs, but I just spotted some PDF data sheets so some more details are in order.

Quote
Last I contacted both, JAP was just reselling cheap Far East products with high markup.  JAP stopped responding when I asked about this directly.

If they work and the company supports them then I don't necessarily mind. I also posted in the Rewed Vision forums and one person replied and commented on a high failure rate with the v1 products as well as seeing compression with the v1 products, and speculated the v2 with gigabit might do better.

I'm not necessarily hung up on them - it's just theirs is the first product I've seen with the three features I specifically called out.  If there are others (and perhaps the SVSI gear does all that too) I'm all for comparing vendors and picking the best mix of features/price for my environment.

Thanks again!
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Steven Barnes

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 07:40:01 pm »

I know this thread is pretty old, but I just ran across it.

I just finished up my 3rd install with JAP equipment and so far everything is working great.

1st install, 5 inputs x 4 outputs, 1x Cisco SG500-28P Switch, AMX Control
2nd install, 12 inputs x 28 outputs, 3x Cisco SG500-28P (stacked), AMX Control
3rd install, 12 inputs x 49 outputs, 3x Cisco SG500-28P (stacked), AMX Control

If you have any specific questions let me know, I might be able to answer them.
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Brad Weber

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 09:31:45 am »

I know this thread is pretty old, but I just ran across it.

I just finished up my 3rd install with JAP equipment and so far everything is working great.

1st install, 5 inputs x 4 outputs, 1x Cisco SG500-28P Switch, AMX Control
2nd install, 12 inputs x 28 outputs, 3x Cisco SG500-28P (stacked), AMX Control
3rd install, 12 inputs x 49 outputs, 3x Cisco SG500-28P (stacked), AMX Control

If you have any specific questions let me know, I might be able to answer them.
Are you using the PoE functionality for a specific purpose?  Why three 28 port switches for a 12x28 system?
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Steven Barnes

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 05:20:13 pm »

Are you using the PoE functionality for a specific purpose?  Why three 28 port switches for a 12x28 system?

- POE is used to power the receivers.

- Couple reasons on the switches
     - Spread out the power draw
     - The switches are used for the control system as well which currently requires 15 or so switch ports.
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Brian Tennyson

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2014, 11:58:57 am »

- POE is used to power the receivers.

- Couple reasons on the switches
     - Spread out the power draw
     - The switches are used for the control system as well which currently requires 15 or so switch ports.

What kind of delay are you getting and what kind of bandwidth are you pushing at what resolution? Those are really the defining factors that differentiate different MPEG encoders.

Also, are you pushing HDCP protected material or just computer?
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Steven Barnes

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 10:21:36 pm »

What kind of delay are you getting and what kind of bandwidth are you pushing at what resolution? Those are really the defining factors that differentiate different MPEG encoders.

Also, are you pushing HDCP protected material or just computer?

Delay is negligible in the systems we are installing, I have no way of measuring other than the amount of delay we are using in the audio system to compensate (roughly 20ms).

We a have a total of 12 inputs (8 Directv Receiver (Playing HDCP protected material), 1 BR Player (Playing HDCP protected material), and 3 Mac Minis Media Players (Playing both HDCP and non HDCP content).

Resolution is a mix of 720P and 1080i out of the DTV receiver (1080P on content when it is available), BR Player (1080P), and 1920x1080 out of the mac minis.

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gil parente

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Re: HDMI over IP
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 10:57:22 pm »

I've installed a bunch of JAP systems.  I had some issues with the 1st generation stuff, but only one unit gave me issue with the 2G products.  I've also used the SVSI Volante products.  They operate quite differently since JAP uses VLAN switching so there is always only one transmitter on a VLAN.  SVSI operates on the same VLAN and controls the bandwidth of each TX according to need.  Both systems have their use.
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Gil Parente
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