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[Greg Percy]

Basic set up is 2 ev eliminator tops w  2 Yorkville Ucs1 subs...I also have a qsc HPR151 powered sub that is currently sitting in my garage...Would it be beneficial to my system to add the powered sub as a supplement to the other two, or would that just screw things up low end wise...If I were to do it, what would be the best placement- when possible I usually couple the yorkvilles center stage...(I have a Beh. dcx2496, so I can run an extra sub channel from there) I do recall reading that mix n match subs isn't the best idea...just curious as to your ideas..thanks in advance

[John Halliburton]

Basic set up is 2 ev eliminator tops w  2 Yorkville Ucs1 subs...I also have a qsc HPR151 powered sub that is currently sitting in my garage...Would it be beneficial to my system to add the powered sub as a supplement to the other two, or would that just screw things up low end wise...If I were to do it, what would be the best placement- when possible I usually couple the yorkvilles center stage...(I have a Beh. dcx2496, so I can run an extra sub channel from there) I do recall reading that mix n match subs isn't the best idea...just curious as to your ideas..thanks in advance

Considering that you would be trying to mate up two different subwoofer types(horn loaded vs. vented), it isn't recommended.

Sell the QSC and add more Yorkvilles.

Best regards,

John

[Chuck Simon]

You have nothing to loose by trying.  It might help, it might not.  Why not try it?  No one will get hurt in the process!

[George Dougherty]

You have nothing to loose by trying.  It might help, it might not.  Why not try it?  No one will get hurt in the process!

No one except maybe the subs.  Horn loaded and direct radiator subs operating in the same bandwidth are a recipe for all kinds of issues as John already mentioned.  You'll cause comb filtering problems between the two and it becomes very easy to damage something because of major cancellations through differences in time arrival.
+1 to John's suggestion unless the OP wants to keep the QSC around as a small system sub for light duty events where high output is not needed.

[Mark McFarlane]

What about using the third sub in a drum monitor rig?

[Chuck Simon]

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it becomes very easy to damage something because of major cancellations through differences in time arrival.
Has that ever happened?

[Tim McCulloch]

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it becomes very easy to damage something because of major cancellations through differences in time arrival.
Has that ever happened?

George is heading into the "gee, I turned up the XYZ sub and it didn't get louder so I turned it up MORE" discussion.  I've seen that happen, but it wasn't from different types of woofer loading... it was from different front loaded boxes, a pair of JBL and a single EV-loaded box.  Take a guess....

[Chuck Simon]

So as long as you are not over-driving your subs past their capibility(never a good idea), you cannot damage them because of "major cancellations through differences in time arrival."

[Tim McCulloch]

So as long as you are not over-driving your subs past their capibility(never a good idea), you cannot damage them because of "major cancellations through differences in time arrival."

True.  The issue is overdriving something because the operator cannot perceive the acoustic results of the changes he is making.

Keep everything within normal thermal/mechanical parameters and it will operate without failure... it just won't sound right... but no, it will not fail.

[Chuck Simon]

Yeah, it probably won't sound right, but with so many variables like the room, sub placement, etc. you never know.  That's why I am from the "give it a try" school of thought.  We've all been surprised by things that should or shouldn't work!

[Mike Reigh]

What about as a center fill sub?

[Tim McCulloch]

What about as a center fill sub?

You don't remove the interactions, you MOVE them.

Make the oddball sub a drummer's monitor sub or sell it and get another of what already is owned.

[Jon C Thomas]

What about as a center fill sub?

Bass is omnidirectional so all you will do is experiment with phase and nulls from speaker interactions. May work in some rooms but coupling is generally preferred for a smooth response and maximum output.

[David Parker]

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it becomes very easy to damage something because of major cancellations through differences in time arrival.
Has that ever happened?

my subs were all the same, but I was not hi-passing my tops, I ran the tops full range and added subs. I got a lot of cancellation and tore up way too many 18s trying to get the bass like I wanted it. I hi-passed the tops properly with a crossover and never tore up another 18 and had more bass and tighter bass. It is possible to align the subs and tops in this configuration and get them to play well together, but it doesn't happen all by itself, and the results WERE disastrous.

mixing subs in and of itself will not tear anything up. The destruction comes from driving subs ever harder to try and overcome cancellations.

[George Dougherty]

Yeah, it probably won't sound right, but with so many variables like the room, sub placement, etc. you never know.  That's why I am from the "give it a try" school of thought.  We've all been surprised by things that should or shouldn't work!

Like others have said, no, it's only when you overdrive it, but frankly given the output of the Yorkville's I wouldn't expect the QSC to add anything much in the way of overall output anyway and with all the work needed to align the subs (for every different configuration and placement) to minimize the problems it will undoubtedly cause it's just not worth the effort.  It can work okay as a drum monitor because the output needed to create enough volume at the drummer's position is lower than the output you'd run to cover a large room.
I'm all for playing with positioning of subs and trying all sorts of things that may or may not work.  This for me falls into the category of "I'd like white speakers, how much black paint do I need to put on them to get them to look white?"

[Greg Percy]

Yep--Kinda what I thought---and I don't have any white paint...I knew I'd get some interesting ideas though...
Thanks

GP

[Josh Billings]

Yeah, it probably won't sound right, but with so many variables like the room, sub placement, etc. you never know.  That's why I am from the "give it a try" school of thought.  We've all been surprised by things that should or shouldn't work!

I agree, give it a try. It may turn out good...but BEST solution is to get more matching subs.

Josh

[EvanKirkendall]

(I have a Beh. dcx2496, so I can run an extra sub channel from there)

Every single person in this thread missed this line. You've got processing available, you can make it work! I do this on a regular basis, with great results: http://soundforums.net/blogs/evan-kirkendall/22-fun-phase.html


If you don't have the measuring tools available, it just takes a little listening. There's 2 simple ways to do it:

First, put the QSC sub on one send, and the USC1 on another. Put the usual processing in for your USC1, and leave the QSC flat.

1. Place the subs side by side. Play some music through them both. Start adding delay time on the QSC until the low end gets louder. Find a sweet spot that seems to really sound punchy and full. Now add like 3-6ms of delay and see if it gets quieter. If it does, you know you've found the sweet spot, if not, keep trying until you can get it.

or

2. Invert the polarity on one of the subs. Again, add delay time on the QSC sub, but this time the sweet spot is when all of the low end disappears(or just sounds really strange when you put your head between the 2 subs). Now flip the polarity back to normal- the low end should get a lot louder. If it does, you win. If not, start over and keep trying.

I'd imagine 7ms or so of delay would get you close. Remember- this business is all about experimenting and learning!


(but the easy solution would in fact be to buy another USC1 and sell the QSC sub, but what fun is that?)


Evan

[Art Welter]

Every single person in this thread missed this line. You've got processing available, you can make it work! I do this on a regular basis, with great results: http://soundforums.net/blogs/evan-kirkendall/22-fun-phase.html

I'd imagine 7ms or so of delay would get you close. Remember- this business is all about experimenting and learning!

All very good information, and the same procedure should also be done to phase align the top cabinets to the subs, the tops will probably also require a similar amount of delay.

Most PAs that I hear lacking "punch" have failed to align the tops to the subs.

[Jay Barracato]

Most PAs that I hear lacking "punch" have failed to align the tops to the subs.

It seems to me the band between 100 and 200 hz is usually the most out of wack on these systems.

[David Morison]

It seems to me the band between 100 and 200 hz is usually the most out of wack on these systems.

In addition to time alignment errors, that's also going to be the range that shows up any mud if subs are turned up louder than mains without appropriate compensation for the increased overlap (ie underlapping the crossover points).
(I'm sure you and Art know that of course, just chucking it out for anyone else, FWIW.)
David.

[Greg Percy]

OK- i stumbled across 2 more UCS1s (now I have 4) for $400 each...
More subs=good
Will be running with (2) plx1602 bridged at 4ohms --2 ucs1 per side 4ohms should be about 800 watts per cab...also coupling effect of 2 per side should help...shouldn't have to push it too much with music I deal with...selling the hpr151 to help pay for other 2 subs

Good solution?
Thx

GP

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