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Author Topic: time delay opinions please  (Read 7608 times)

Keith Broughton

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time delay opinions please
« on: February 19, 2013, 07:21:53 AM »

The main stage is centre room and there are 4 line source arrays deployed "in the round" from a truss above that stage.
This stage is for the live entertainment for the event.
The head table and lectern is against a side wall about 80' from the main speakers.
As is obvious, there will be a  time delay for the person speaking at the lectern and hearing themselves in the main PA.
70' may not be enough delay to cause a problem with the person speaking at the lectern but still I would like to entertain some ideas.
I can have a couple of monitor speakers pointing up to the head table and lectern position for fold back of the lectern mic.
What delay time would be appropriate? Do I delay the monitor to...
1- the main PA appx  70 ms- doesn't address delay but provides a bit more clarity
2- half the time appx 35 ms- take advantage of early arrival perception and short echo
3-no delay 0ms- maximum early arrival perception but longer echo.
I would entertain answers based on the PA setup as indicated as I am not in a position to add more PA.
Thanks
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:34:40 AM by keith broughton »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 07:35:55 AM »

The main stage is centre room and there are 4 line source arrays deployed "in the round" from a truss above that stage.
This stage is for the live entertainment for the event.
The head table and lectern is against a side wall about 80' from the main speakers.
As is obvious, there will be a  time delay for the person speaking at the lectern and hearing themselves in the main PA.
70' may not be enough delay to cause a problem with the person speaking at the lectern but still I would like to entertain some ideas.
I can have a couple of monitor speakers pointing up to the head table and lectern position for fold back of the lectern mic.
What delay time would be appropriate? Do I delay the lectern mic to...
1- the main PA appx  70 ms- doesn't address delay but provides a bit more clarity
2- half the time appx 35 ms- take advantage of early arrival perception and short echo
3-no delay 0ms- maximum early arrival perception but longer echo.
Thoughts?
If you add any delay to the mic-the problem will get WORSE.  Unless you have some way to speed up the sound from the main PA (say getting the room temp to around say 10,000°) there is nothing you can do-short of moving the mic.

If you run some monitors and add a little bit of delay to them-that can help to "spread out" the arrival of the sound to the speakers ears-so the arrival from the PA will not be as bad.

But even that slight signal delay might mess with their talking.

You can't defeat physics.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 08:41:46 AM »

Second "voice only" PA in line with the speakers table.  Keep the speaking mic out of the "backward facing" half of the PA, delay the other half to the "voice PA".

Yeah, right.........
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Keith Broughton

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 09:28:08 AM »

Quote
If you add any delay to the mic-the problem will get WORSE.
What I meant was adding delay to the monitor send rather than the mic channel. (corrected in OP)
Spreading out the time looks like it might work but the level of the mic in the monitor will determine how well the first arrival effect will work.
I'll try some variations and see.

Quote
Keep the speaking mic out of the "backward facing" half of the PA, delay the other half to the "voice PA".
While it would be nice to add more PA at the head table end of the room, that is not within the parameters of the question or budget.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:35:27 AM by keith broughton »
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 09:39:08 AM »

What I meant was adding delay to the monitor send rather than the mic channel. (corrected in OP)...I'll try some variations and see.

I'm curious to hear what works. Even 30ms of latency is distracting for me. My guess is 0 extra latency in the monitors will sound best to the speaker, or 5 or 6ms at most.
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Mark McFarlane

Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 09:45:39 AM »

You have 2 issues.

One is the imaging of the speaker's voice as it comes out of a PA located away from where he is. You can't do anything about this short of more/different PA. But your OP suggests you are really interested in the second issue:

The second issue is whether the speakers' monitors will be effective considering the arrival of the sound from the PA will be ~70ms late compared to the sound in the wedges. This potentially could be off putting. I would start with no delay on the monitors. Add 35ms if its an issue. Generally speaking, secondary sources between 10-30ms later than the primary source will not be heard as a distinct echo, even if they are louder than the primary. This is even more true if the sources are coming from the same direction, and if the listener is facing in that direction.

So in short, you're probably fine, but the ability to add delay to the monitors at the lecturn may be useful.
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Riedel Communications

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 10:36:39 AM »

While it would be nice to add more PA at the head table end of the room, that is not within the parameters of the question or budget.

Yeah, right.......or perhaps "as if".

What you've been handed is the classic "no win" situation.  There's really nothing you can add into the setup that will make it any better or worse.  I've had some speakers for whom 5 milliseconds was enough to confuse them beyond being able to speak.  Other, more experienced people can handle a "stadium" delay, focus on what they're saying and keep going.

Set up your fold-backs @ the speakers table and get a guinea pig at the mic.  Play with the delay.  See what happens.  That's about all you can do.

I think it is what it is, unfortunately.  Kudos to you for caring and trying.  I'd do the same.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:43:49 AM by dick rees »
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 10:50:41 AM »

The main stage is centre room and there are 4 line source arrays deployed "in the round" from a truss above that stage.
This stage is for the live entertainment for the event.
The head table and lectern is against a side wall about 80' from the main speakers.
As is obvious, there will be a  time delay for the person speaking at the lectern and hearing themselves in the main PA.
70' may not be enough delay to cause a problem with the person speaking at the lectern but still I would like to entertain some ideas.
I can have a couple of monitor speakers pointing up to the head table and lectern position for fold back of the lectern mic.
What delay time would be appropriate? Do I delay the monitor to...
1- the main PA appx  70 ms- doesn't address delay but provides a bit more clarity
2- half the time appx 35 ms- take advantage of early arrival perception and short echo
3-no delay 0ms- maximum early arrival perception but longer echo.
I would entertain answers based on the PA setup as indicated as I am not in a position to add more PA.
Thanks

This is one time highly isolating IEMs could be the ticket, provided you can get them on every orator.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 11:48:17 AM »

What I meant was adding delay to the monitor send rather than the mic channel. (corrected in OP)
Spreading out the time looks like it might work but the level of the mic in the monitor will determine how well the first arrival effect will work.
I'll try some variations and see.
 While it would be nice to add more PA at the head table end of the room, that is not within the parameters of the question or budget.
Try this: Don't put any delay on the monitor-but DO add some reverb to that mix ONLY!  That way the presenter will hear some reverb out of their monitor (think it is part of the "hall" and that will help to "fill in the space" till the main signal gets there.

The problem is that the main signal has to be loud enough for others around the table (audience) to hear-so it will still be distracting.

And we won't even start to talk about the gain before feedback issues that are likely to occur with the mic in front of the PA and "probably" non professional mic users at the podium---------------------------------
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Ivan Beaver
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Keith Broughton

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Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 12:18:40 PM »

Quote
add some reverb to that mix ONLY!
Hadn't thought of that! Nice :)
Quote
Generally speaking, secondary sources between 10-30ms later than the primary source will not be heard as a distinct echo, even if they are louder than the primary.
My delay idea is based on this concept so maybe less than 35 ms would be better.

The whole concept revolves around the gain before feedback level of the monitors to the lectern mic.
If the first arrival is not strong enough, the concept collapses.
However, the reverb  will have the effect of drawing the listeners attention to the first arrival better as it creates a "longer" sound envelope for the brain to latch on to.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: time delay opinions please
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 12:18:40 PM »


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