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Author Topic: Danley SH100B and TH115  (Read 13422 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2013, 10:31:50 PM »

or whatever the actual might be because they are afraid the installer/user isn't smart enough to do the data entry? I will concede all processor implementations of nominally the same filter are not usually identical. I will also concede TD could be and probably is using some very odd filters many processors can not readily create but it is the installer/users responsibilty to follow the instructions given or decide they can live with some variations and compromises for their application.
I understand your reason for asking about biamping but looking at the big picture...

Many people seem to want products that are as 'plug and play' as possible.  Some users may like to tweak away but many others just want to plug it up and have it sound good.  Trying to make a box support both can just raise the cost and complexity for everyone.

At the same time, DSP units, speaker design and speaker/system tuning have advanced and become more complex.  FIR and/or IIR filters, how Q or bandwidth are derived, all pass filters and other details can differ between DSP devices and can be relevant to such advanced tuning.

Adding to that, leaving tuning up to users is a two edged sword.   If someone does a great job tuning a box or system people see the name on the speakers and often associate that good result with that product.  Conversely, if someone does a poor job then people may also assume that is also a result of the box and  associate that result with the manufacturer.

Different manufacturers sometimes use different approaches to address all of this.  Some manufacturers provide generic recommended processor settings.  Fulcrum Acoustic provides the DSP programming for the particular speaker and processor combination involved.  TC Group will provide presets for combinations of their Tannoy and Lab Gruppen/Lake products.  Other manufacturers like Nexo and d&b offer processing devices with already programmed product specific processing presets.  You are even seeing this trickle down to MI oriented products with the Line 6 and new PreSonus AI speakers and their onboard processing, much of which is used to tune the box.  And in the case of the SH100B Danley chose to use internal crossovers.

No worries! I expect the usual suspects will be along any time with a treatise on the dangers of selecting and buying used equipment.
You seem to understand the potential risks and be willing and able to accept them.  You also seem to have the background and resources to assess the gear and handle many minor issues that might be found.  You also seem to have virtually unlimited free time with no better use of it.  Not everyone is in that position.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 11:30:35 AM by Brad Weber »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2013, 07:47:43 AM »


I am quite sure I never said biamping would make these sound any better. I did say biamping the SH100B might make them work better with the amplifiers we already own. We do not intend to put lots of additonal money into our Clair Brothers amps at this point but we do intend to continue to use them until they become unreliable or problematic. It could be two years or ten years before we have to replace them, hopefully by then users with more dollars than sense will be off chasing clouds with some other must have, new, revolutionary, amp configuration and we will be able to buy a bunch of Labs for one sixth of original selling price just like how we got the Clairs.
I would just get the cabinets and TRY them as is-they should do just fine for you.

But remember-if you were to go biamped (and all the associated stuff with that) you will only pickup a dB or so.

Is that REALLY worth the extra effort and complexity?

No matter the size of the amp-you can't just keep going and going-at some point the power capacity of the drivers will be the limiting factor-and with the amps you have-you are close to that.

Personally I would not worry about it.
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Ivan Beaver
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2013, 10:33:15 AM »

I would just get the cabinets and TRY them as is-they should do just fine for you.

But remember-if you were to go biamped (and all the associated stuff with that) you will only pickup a dB or so.

Is that REALLY worth the extra effort and complexity?

No matter the size of the amp-you can't just keep going and going-at some point the power capacity of the drivers will be the limiting factor-and with the amps you have-you are close to that.

Personally I would not worry about it.

I am of the opinion that a good bit of the reason DSL boxes sound as good as they do is the freaky phase response that looks just about like the magnitude. I am an reasonably competent DIYer but with all the evidence pointing to there being some unique filters lurking on a DSL crossover board, I am not sure I have sufficient time available to iterate from zero to an approximately equivalent response using active filters. Back when I converted all our EV coax wedges to biamp it took about 8 hours of T&E to get them to measure just about exactly like they did passive and then another 40 or 50 to achieve measurable improvements including setting the band specific limiters. Those EV wedges had only a straightforward symmetrical two way crossover of specified nominal performance greatly reducing the variables. I am going to see where the seller is at on his price and go from there.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 11:19:56 AM »

I am of the opinion that a good bit of the reason DSL boxes sound as good as they do is the freaky phase response that looks just about like the magnitude. I am an reasonably competent DIYer but with all the evidence pointing to there being some unique filters lurking on a DSL crossover board, I am not sure I have sufficient time available to iterate from zero to an approximately equivalent response using active filters. Back when I converted all our EV coax wedges to biamp it took about 8 hours of T&E to get them to measure just about exactly like they did passive and then another 40 or 50 to achieve measurable improvements including setting the band specific limiters. Those EV wedges had only a straightforward symmetrical two way crossover of specified nominal performance greatly reducing the variables. I am going to see where the seller is at on his price and go from there.
I'm confused by your logic, as usual.

So you admit that tuning is hard, and there's significant work to make a bi-amped system sound as good as a well-designed passive, and then are disappointed that Danley doesn't offer overly simplistic information about how to hack apart a crossover implementation that you admit is very good so the user can have a chance at making it sound worse by trying to bi-amp it? 

If you're as skilled as you seem to be, it would seem that you'd be able to derive the same settings.

As to your "usual suspects" comment, I guess I'm happy for you that you're willing to invest a large number of hours of your time to save a few dollars for your church by rehabing old gear and/or modifying perfectly good gear to potentially work slightly better with your existing fleet of 30 year old amps.  For much of the rest of the world, time - even volunteer time - is worth something, and I wonder if that energy wouldn't be better spent in procuring a different piece of equipment that may fit the needs of the moment better, allowing your time to be spent on more value added projects.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 12:01:51 PM »

I am of the opinion that a good bit of the reason DSL boxes sound as good as they do is the freaky phase response that looks just about like the magnitude.
I am not sure where you get that.  Especially on the low freq.

The "heart" of the Danley approach is to get a SINGLE arrival across the freq band-and to have that same arrival time throughout the listening area. THAT is the hard part.  It is easy to get it "right" at some point in the coverage pattern-but to get it right everywhere is a lot harder.

 Multiple time arrivals result in a smearing of the acoustic signature.

Of course having flat phase will make a multiband loudspeaker sound more like a single cone driver-or more natural.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Brad Weber

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »

Of course having flat phase will make a multiband loudspeaker sound more like a single cone driver-or more natural.
Hasn't a full range speaker that behaves as a point source with controlled directivity been the elusive goal for years?  We seem to be getting closer but only by creatively addressing some of the practical physics and mechanics involved.
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jason misterka

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2013, 05:43:45 PM »

Bob,

For what it is worth, we have installed one SH100B and several SH100 boxes with very good results.

I would not ever try to biamp them, it just doesn't seem worth putting any effort in that direction when the factory spec product is as good as an SM100B right out of the box.

In regards to aligning with subs, the SH100B, in our situation, had more than enough low frequency response for a contemporary praise band in a six hundred seat church.  The addition of subwoofers would only be required to extend the frequency range lower, not for more volume at, say, 60hz or probably even 50hz.

The above statement is based on experience and not looking at the spec sheet.  YMMV.  Good luck.

Jason
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2013, 12:39:33 PM »

So you admit that tuning is hard, and there's significant work to make a bi-amped system sound as good as a well-designed passive, and are then disappointed that Danley doesn't offer overly simplistic information about how to hack apart a crossover implementation that you admit is very good so the user can have a chance at making it sound worse by trying to bi-amp it? 

Not at all, but I am disappointed Danley didn't see fit to build the circuit to support a biamp option nor to provide complete accurate tuning specs.

If you're as skilled as you seem to be, it would seem that you'd be able to derive the same settings.

True enough and I said I thought I probably could but it may take more time than I have available between now and the event we need them for.

As to your "usual suspects" comment, I guess I'm happy for you that you're willing to invest a large number of hours of your time to save a few dollars for your church by rehabing old gear and/or modifying perfectly good gear to potentially work slightly better with your existing fleet of 30 year old amps.

A few dollars??? 30 years old??? When I price out a dozen or so Crown I-tech, Lab, Powersoft or other top shelf amps, I don't end up with numbers that are a few dollars. Our current Clairs were purchased new by their original owner in 2000. We got them about five years later after some contractor spooked them about Carver folding up shop and talked them into replacing them all. Clair didn't retire the last of these same amps from their own tour rigs until 2011. They still serve faithfully as the power for most 12AM rigs including in a number of high profile venues like say http://www.ryman.com/tech/index.html as an example.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 05:58:31 PM by Bob L. Wilson »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 05:15:31 PM »

Not at all, but I am disapponted Danley didn't see fit to build the circuit to support a biamp option nor to provide complete accurate tuning specs.

 
Why should any manufacturer "see fit" to provide information for the usage of a product other than was intended?

I bet if you went to any other manufacturer and asked them the same question/request you would get the same answer.

If they already intend it to be biamped-that is not the question-but rather to take apart the passive section to go biamped or triamped.

You also admit that it is a lot of work-yet you want us to do it for free for you?  Of all of the SH100Bs that have been sold-this is the first time a request like this has come up.  So it is not like it is a "popular" idea.

I still say-try it the way it is.  And also remember that you would only get a dB or two extra anyway.  I would not worry about that-but that is me.
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Ivan Beaver
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 06:05:32 PM »

Why should any manufacturer "see fit" to provide information for the usage of a product other than was intended?

I bet if you went to any other manufacturer and asked them the same question/request you would get the same answer.

If they already intend it to be biamped-that is not the question-but rather to take apart the passive section to go biamped or triamped.

You also admit that it is a lot of work-yet you want us to do it for free for you?  Of all of the SH100Bs that have been sold-this is the first time a request like this has come up.  So it is not like it is a "popular" idea.

I still say-try it the way it is.  And also remember that you would only get a dB or two extra anyway.  I would not worry about that-but that is me.

I have seen many instances where biamp versions of speakers were released after the fact due to consumer pressure, but since I appear to be the only one interested, passive network it is!
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Re: Danley SH100B and TH115
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 06:05:32 PM »


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