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Author Topic: When you need a Dugan....  (Read 4986 times)

Kevin Maxwell

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2013, 11:38:37 pm »

I tried the gating method once. Long story but it doesnít work very well. The screaming feedback thing, well thatís what happens.

Let me put it this way does anyone know someone who can program plugins? I have considered trying to learn, but I donít even know what the initial cost of entry is.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2013, 10:34:28 am »

I think there's a web forum where guys who can do all different kinds of programming hang out. Don't know the name of the place off hand..

JR
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Mac Kerr

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2013, 12:57:34 pm »

My hope is Dan will design plug-ins for Avid.  While this has other up-front costs, there is no hardware to design, integrate, fabricate or support.

There are different DSP and software standards to meet. There is a big market for Avid plug ins because there is also the DAW market to sell to. An automixer will likely also eat up a lot of DSP power.

Mac
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2013, 01:47:42 pm »

There are different DSP and software standards to meet. There is a big market for Avid plug ins because there is also the DAW market to sell to. An automixer will likely also eat up a lot of DSP power.

Mac

Also, an automixer is probably less attractive to the Pro Tools market than to the much smaller live sound market.  But I'm not a post or recording guy, so there might be uses I'm not aware of.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2013, 02:46:07 pm »

How long would you need the LS9 for? I'm down for trading usage for the final product. :D

-Ray
A very kind offer, but probably not feasible. Contact me on my website.
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-Andy

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Andrew Broughton

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2013, 03:12:17 pm »


Oh I really wish he would!

Andrew's "automoxer" program for the LS9 actually works pretty well, HOWEVER there are a few bugs and the program occationally crashes.  The good news is, once set up and running, I've never had the program crash PROVIDED I did not make any parameter changes within the program during an event.  So, the key is, set it up the program how you want it, and don't touch a thing during the show!  You can do whatever you want on the LS9, but leave the computer alone.

Tom
Interesting, Tom.
I had gotten the impression that the delay issue and the MIDI message speed made the program unusable. You actually have used it with some success?
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-Andy

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2013, 05:33:35 pm »

Interesting, JR. That, coupled with the idea of using an aux for the "summed" level instead of calculating the sum of each channel level might make for a better mousetrap.

Guessing that you may have a control path bandwidth limitation, I would preferentially service
1-largest gain increase error
2-largest gain decrease error
3-all channels with gain more than -6dB gain (will only be 1 or 2 typically. )

For channels that are down 6 dB or more, exactly how far down they are is not important.

JR
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Steve Anderson

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2013, 06:14:32 pm »

Slight topic veer... to install/contractor stuff.

The patent expired early 90's... does anyone know what products use the same tech/algorithms or whatever they are?

There's a myriad of "configurable" devices out there (Rane, Symetrix, Media Matrix, BiAmp) as well as standalone items like the Rane AM series. Just wondering which uses what tech. Guessing they can't mention "Dugan" without paying him, but can use the expired patent tech.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2013, 07:02:44 pm »

Slight topic veer... to install/contractor stuff.

The patent expired early 90's... does anyone know what products use the same tech/algorithms or whatever they are?

There's a myriad of "configurable" devices out there (Rane, Symetrix, Media Matrix, BiAmp) as well as standalone items like the Rane AM series. Just wondering which uses what tech. Guessing they can't mention "Dugan" without paying him, but can use the expired patent tech.
For the record the patent expired mid-late '90s IIRC. My AM improvement patent issued in '97 and that was a couple years after Dan's original one expired. Dan had other later AM patents too.

Any products designed or redesigned after that date "should" have used it, but most of the players who were already in the market competing with their alternate approaches were invested in continuing down their own road. Some on your short list entered the AM market after the '90s so could use the public domain technology.  I used it in Peavey products and recall meeting with the guy coding up Media Matrix to tell him how it worked. He may have added some extra bells and whistles, i never checked out the final result myself but recall hearing good reports from some people who used it.  I don't know for a fact but would be surprised if the Rane unit doesn't use it.

You can usually read between the lines when product literature talks about "industry standard" NOM or gain sharing algorithms. IMO there is no good reason not to use it. It is elegant and simple, and works great. 

JR
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Nick Simon

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Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2013, 10:08:06 am »

tidbit....

In 1991, Dugan's patent expired. Competing manufacturers began to bring the Dugan algorithm directly to their product designs. In 1993, Travis M. Sims, Jr. of Lectrosonics (Rio Rancho, New Mexico) was granted a patent for a sound system with rate controlled, variable attenuation of microphone inputs, including the Dugan algorithm as well as loudspeaker zone attenuation when in close proximity to an active microphone.[28] The loudspeaker zone part of the patent cited a 1985 patent for proportional amplification by Eugene R. Griffith, Jr. of LVW Systems of Colorado Springs, a commercial audio contractor.[29] In 1995, Sims and Lectrosonics gained another patent for an "Adaptive proportional gain audio mixing system" which incorporated a number of ideas including the Dugan algorithm for maintaining a constant total gain of all the inputs.[30]

In 1996, Dugan came out with the Model D-1, a speech-only economy model that did not offer the music system of the Model D.[15]

In 1997, John H. Roberts (our hero) of Peavey Electronics was granted a patent for an automatic mixer priority circuit, enabling a hierarchy of logic weighting that allowed selected signals to push forward in the mix when they are in use, while still maintaining the useful constant unity, gain-sharing relationship first described by Dugan. The hierarchy enabled a host, moderator or chairperson to speak over other participants and retain control of the discussion.[31] Peavey's Architectural Acoustics division used three levels of hierarchy in their 1998 "Automix 2" product, placing the first- and second-most influentially weighted sources at inputs 1 and 2, respectively.[32]

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