ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: When you need a Dugan....  (Read 28006 times)

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7551
  • Audio Plumber
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 09:21:04 AM »

I know you are referring to the Shure automixers, but what is the general consensus on the singing algorithms/settings in the Dugan products so equipped?

I don't know anyone who uses the Dugan "Music System". For many years Dugan automixers were used on the Tony Awards live sound. Each show had its own Dugan and the cast mics were routed through it. It was a great help to the FOH mixer who had to mix a half a dozen shows he was largely unfamiliar with. He did a great job with the help of the Dugan automixers.

I have not personally used them for music.

Mac
Logged

Jordan Wolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1483
  • Location: Collingswood, NJ
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 10:07:53 AM »

I am sorry for the delay in answering your question I haven’t been back on here for a little while.
That's alright…we're all busy people.

Quote
I use the SCM810s a lot with digital consoles. I haven’t used an analog console on a musical in years. I always delay the speaker system to the stage so I just don’t need as much delay when the mics on the automixer are taken into consideration. I use a dialog sub group and a singing subgroup. As I have said the automixers don’t work well for singing. I then add delay to the singing subgroup so the cross fades between the 2 subgroups line up in time. 

The amount of delay has never been enough to cause a problem anywhere for me yet. Even the feed I send to video has never been a problem with the video people.
That's good to know - I haven't had the chance to try mine out with a digital console yet; I'm sure the opportunity will pop up in the near future, though…

Quote
I won’t do a play/musical without a digital console and I also won't do a panel discussion without an automixer. I have never used an LS9 mostly because it won’t do what I want in a digital console. I have used and don’t like the M7 due to some limitations with it. I have used a PM5DRH and I liked that. The last musical I did I used an Avid /Digidesign profile surface with the mixrack and I have another one of those lined up for a Musical in March.
I don't blame you.  One of the big things I noticed lacking in both the LS9 and the M7CL was channel input delay…only "outport" delay was available - which is good for delay the rig, but not helpful on sources - in my world, I deal with lip sync issues sometimes (video playback).  It's essential that the audio and video line up, and that's something I need to be able to fix if necessary.

Quote
I really wish there were automixer plug ins for some of the digital consoles, like the Avid. I have talked to Mr. Dugan about that when we were on a panel together about automixing a few years ago.
I think that the many people in our industry that work corporate and theatre settings would be very interested in seeing versions of the Dugan automixing suited to other brands of consoles (such as those from Avid).  The Yamaha card seems nice (still haven't had the chance to use one yet), but unless Yamaha has an exclusive license to Dan's products in the digital console realm, I see no reason why it couldn't be realized.
Logged
Jordan Wolf
<><

"We want our sound to go into the soul of the audience, and see if it can awaken some little thing in their minds... Cause there are so many sleeping people." - Jimi Hendrix

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17176
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 10:47:52 AM »


I think that the many people in our industry that work corporate and theatre settings would be very interested in seeing versions of the Dugan automixing suited to other brands of consoles (such as those from Avid).  The Yamaha card seems nice (still haven't had the chance to use one yet), but unless Yamaha has an exclusive license to Dan's products in the digital console realm, I see no reason why it couldn't be realized.

I can't speak for Mr. Dugan but from where I sit there is a problem for him in that the basic technology, the namesake "Dugan" algorithm, is public domain, so free for anybody to use. His primary patent expired back in the '90s.  Modern digital consoles have all the hardware needed, and should have adequate computing overhead to handle the automatic mixing with a simple software change (my speculation but probably accurate).

So the issue becomes what is in it for the digital console maker to pay him? There is certainly some value in a named "approved" version that can use his name, and he could save them some time dialing one in with his decades of experience, but it isn't rocket science after you know the secret sauce, that is published in his old patent.

Many who copy his basic algorithm avoid calling it "Dugan" ( at least in print- There are several out there. I used the algorithm in a product I designed back in the late '90s.).  I suspect the market for this may not be as widespread as we assume, and general awareness of the benefit of AM is not widely known.

I consider it inevitable but my crystal ball doesn't provide firm availability dates. 8)

JR
Logged
Cancel the "cancel culture". Do not participate in mob hatred.

Bob L. Wilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 412
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 10:49:11 AM »

I use the Shure SCM810 with excellent results. I would prefer to use the Dugan but the SCM810 does one thing the Dugan doesn’t. It has a comparator circuit in it and rather then just gain sharing between 2 close mics it will only turn one on for a sound source.

Do a search on my name and SCM810 and you will find a lot of information on here. And if you still have questions let me know.

I have found the IRP 4080 or 4083 units to be a better compromise than the Shure. The IRP units do not have the comparator or JR's priority circuit improvement but for the theater/drama/panel discussions I use them for it is usually either all wireless or all goosenecks so a single speaker is rarely violating 3:1 for any two mics. I like to go mics/receivers directly into the IRP then out its pass throughs to channels on the console and out its main to a dialog channel on the console. The IRP units can have a slightly audible upcut from silence to a loud single mic so I usually switch to manual control for solos or monologues but if automatic operation is desired directly following a solo then by using last mic hold the circuit can be fooled into holding the desired mic open by the solo performer or stage staff exciting the mic, a cough, clap, hand through the hair with a wig mic, or a simple single tap. The IRPs do a very good job with ensemble singing provided the internal AGC is switched out.  Call and response style singing with duets, trios, quartets is probably their weakest point but for just a couple mics manual control is simple enough.
Logged

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7551
  • Audio Plumber
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 02:11:09 PM »

I think that the many people in our industry that work corporate and theatre settings would be very interested in seeing versions of the Dugan automixing suited to other brands of consoles (such as those from Avid).  The Yamaha card seems nice (still haven't had the chance to use one yet), but unless Yamaha has an exclusive license to Dan's products in the digital console realm, I see no reason why it couldn't be realized.

If there is demand from the users of those consoles, as there was with the Yamaha consoles I'm sure Dan would be willing to design and build mixers to other interface standards. Yamaha does not build or sell the cards, only markets them. They are a product of Dan Dugan Sound Design.

Building the interface and manufacturing the cards costs money. There has to be at least a hope of a big enough market to justify the cost of building for a different console. The ubiquity of MY slots on a wide range of Yamaha consoles makes it a very attractive interface option to develop for. There are Dugan E series mixers available with analog, ADAT, and AES I/O options, it may be easier and more cost effective to use an external mixer via the insert options of the console instead of hoping for an internal solution that may or may not be a good business case.

As I mentioned earlier, Studer has developed an automixer inside the Studer Vista 5 that uses the gain sharing scheme that is central to the Dugan mixers.

Mac
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23736
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 03:11:21 PM »

If there is demand from the users of those consoles, as there was with the Yamaha consoles I'm sure Dan would be willing to design and build mixers to other interface standards. Yamaha does not build or sell the cards, only markets them. They are a product of Dan Dugan Sound Design.

Building the interface and manufacturing the cards costs money. There has to be at least a hope of a big enough market to justify the cost of building for a different console. The ubiquity of MY slots on a wide range of Yamaha consoles makes it a very attractive interface option to develop for. There are Dugan E series mixers available with analog, ADAT, and AES I/O options, it may be easier and more cost effective to use an external mixer via the insert options of the console instead of hoping for an internal solution that may or may not be a good business case.

As I mentioned earlier, Studer has developed an automixer inside the Studer Vista 5 that uses the gain sharing scheme that is central to the Dugan mixers.

Mac

My hope is Dan will design plug-ins for Avid.  While this has other up-front costs, there is no hardware to design, integrate, fabricate or support.
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Kevin McDonough

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 03:21:59 PM »

hey

I have to admit that primarily being a live music engineer and not being heavily involved in either talking head/corporate work or theatre shows I had never heard of a Dugan. But having a quick flick at his site and the shure mixer it makes perfect sense.

I'd have thought that with DIGICO being the theatre favourite (at least here in the UK) thanks to its amazing scene automation that this kind of feature would have been perfect for them, at the very least with their "theatre" packages if not through the whole line.

k
Logged

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17176
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 03:59:05 PM »

My hope is Dan will design plug-ins for Avid.  While this has other up-front costs, there is no hardware to design, integrate, fabricate or support.

+1 my hope too, Dan should do plug-ins or whatever,  before someone else does. Even if he had to pay somebody to code it up, putting his name on it would be merchantable, and he could make sure it doesn't suck.

The problem with software only products is the difficulty to prevent piracy, but the problem with selling a hardware product to fill a software solution is extra cost that makes the solution uncompetitive, should true competition ever rise up.

Better to consume your own market share before somebody else does. IMO

JR
Logged
Cancel the "cancel culture". Do not participate in mob hatred.

Andrew Hollis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 05:07:36 PM »

I have had some modest results by activating a gate with 6-8 db of "range" a fast attack and 2 second hold and .5 second release. It's tough to get the threshold set right but does help a little with multiple mic panel discussions.

Exactly what I was going to suggest, right down to the settings!

SSL consoles have automixing built in.

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17176
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2013, 07:43:17 PM »

Exactly what I was going to suggest, right down to the settings!
I'm not sure what gating is expected to accomplish... It will do nothing for NOM management, especially if some loud noise in the room opens up enough mics, the screaming feedback will keep them all open. Also the background noise will track up and down with multiple mics being opening simultaneously.
---
I actually designed a crude NOM mixer using gated mic input modules in an inexpensive install mixer/amp. I rigged the channels to load down the common summed output signal node a fixed amount every time another mic opened up, creating a crude, stepped NOM correction.  Cheap and dirty but it worked adequately for that cheap and dirty market.
Quote
SSL consoles have automixing built in.
Yup, that looks (sounds) like Dugan style auto-mixing... You guys stop whining and pony up for an SSL.

JR

 
Logged
Cancel the "cancel culture". Do not participate in mob hatred.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: When you need a Dugan....
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2013, 07:43:17 PM »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.037 seconds with 22 queries.