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[Dave Neale]

I should probably walk away from this, but over my 15 years of no day job, four plus shows/week, and touring, sometimes I have found it helpful to use wedges and psycho acoustics to get what I need out of an artist to ensure a good sounding mix for the house full of paying clients and the promoter that's paying for the rig. Which is actually the job in my mind.

Have had this discussion with other professionals and I am surely not the only one.

It is far more professional to send clipped out signals, ignore the system tech and otherwise abuse gear you don't own I suppose. 
 
if the wedges are too hot on deck, the dj has the solution at their master fader. Win/win if you ask me.

[Branko Pucekovic]

That there is no PA system, which, a good DJ can not destroy.

[Marlow Wilson]

I should probably walk away from this, but over my 15 years of no day job, four plus shows/week, and touring, sometimes I have found it helpful to use wedges and psycho acoustics to get what I need out of an artist to ensure a good sounding mix for the house full of paying clients and the promoter that's paying for the rig. Which is actually the job in my mind.

Have had this discussion with other professionals and I am surely not the only one.

It is far more professional to send clipped out signals, ignore the system tech and otherwise abuse gear you don't own I suppose. 
 
if the wedges are too hot on deck, the dj has the solution at their master fader. Win/win if you ask me.

What you've described is completely reasonable.  Going overkill on wedges for dj's works wonders.  The term "slamming" them with the monitors suggested, to me at least, that you would suddenly add 12db or so of gain over their preferred level as set by their independent monitor output to punish them for misbehaving.  Slowly adding gain (psychoacoustics I guess) to overcome the reduced perceived loudness over time that happens when an artist comes out of their quiet green room and acclimates to the deafening loudness is entirely different.

To put it in context, someone on this forum once suggested introducing delay into the monitors of a DJ just to 'play' with him.  Uncooperative DJ's are like any other performer.  You do what you can on the interpersonal level but come prepared to use whatever techniques to improve the situation if the performer doesn't take to it.

The bigger point you've also raised is that none of this is possible if the monitor system you've provided is inadequate.

[RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS]

I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors

Buy one of these and call it good.   http://audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/Adaptors/AP_XLR_PAD/XLR_PAD_cutsheet.shtml

[Dave Neale]

What you've described is completely reasonable.  Going overkill on wedges for dj's works wonders.  The term "slamming" them with the monitors suggested, to me at least, that you would suddenly add 12db or so of gain over their preferred level as set by their independent monitor output to punish them for misbehaving.  Slowly adding gain (psychoacoustics I guess) to overcome the reduced perceived loudness over time that happens when an artist comes out of their quiet green room and acclimates to the deafening loudness is entirely different.

To put it in context, someone on this forum once suggested introducing delay into the monitors of a DJ just to 'play' with him.  Uncooperative DJ's are like any other performer.  You do what you can on the interpersonal level but come prepared to use whatever techniques to improve the situation if the performer doesn't take to it.

The bigger point you've also raised is that none of this is possible if the monitor system you've provided is inadequate.

Yes, perhaps slammed gave the wrong impression.

Ill start off a dj pretty loud in the monitors to hopefully keep their master fader down, and it def has to do with psyco acoustics and fletcher- Munson.

The louder it is, the more pronounced the bass is perceived.

What really works is using small subs as part of the dj rig like a proper drum fill rig.

I know we all have our issues with djs, and too much attenuation is better than not enough, but needing -50db of pad just seems insane to me.

[Len Zenith Jr]

I get that. Have you tried slamming them with the monitor mix to trick them into pulling their master down?

Many DJ's have that figured out now and have a "DIRECT INPUT FROM DJ MIXER TO MONITOR SYSTEM... NO CONSOLES ALLOWED" clause in their rider so that they can control their own monitor level. Dj mixers have their own monitor level control on their board.

The "red means bad" talk only works for the first half of the show, after that the soundman has to ride his input gain on his aux mixer for the rest of the night. There is just no way around it.

[Craig Hauber]

Many DJ's have that figured out now and have a "DIRECT INPUT FROM DJ MIXER TO MONITOR SYSTEM... NO CONSOLES ALLOWED" clause in their rider so that they can control their own monitor level. Dj mixers have their own monitor level control on their board.

This simply means they want their booth monitor feed taken from the booth outs of their console. 
For years I've seen booth monitors fed from a foldback mix derived in the house PA using the DJ's L&R house feed.  Resulting in a frustrating back&forth between DJ and engineer.  This was usually exaggerated by the fact that the DJ was usually there after all the live bands were done and the engineer is out back helping them load-out, then hanging out at the bar upstairs while the rig merrily blasts-away unattended :-)

Part of the issue too is the DJ can't actually turn them down or off either, not just that they don't go louder.  However I am convinced that there are no monitors loud enough for a DJ, although a pair of S4's comes close :-)

The rider also says "console", not "Primary Matrix DSP system"

The "red means bad" talk only works for the first half of the show, after that the soundman has to ride his input gain on his aux mixer for the rest of the night. There is just no way around it.

Save your breath, take him/her a bottle-service setup of their favorite libation and get them and their posse all happy and friendly.  Then discretely engage your Dominator before your main system DSP :-)
(seriously though, just be friendly, provide good service, give them the best your system can put out without damage and the night will usually go good)

[Dave Neale]

Anytime I've been obligated to patch to the monitor out on a dj console, the dj just pushed the monitor rig right into limiting anyway.

Accomplishing my goal for me, but also necessitating worrying about blown monitor drivers all night.

I may be helped by the fact that in the venue I do most of my EDM, the artist is onstage just like a band. They can feel I've got the room thumping so its probably easier for get them to keep their levels reasonable.

Of course half the time they have their damn cans on anyway.

[Nate Armstrong]

Over the weekend I had an Electronic music show.  My Pa was on a smaller stage. while I was doing lighting on a larger stage.

I brought more Rig than the gig needed so I would have a lot of headroom left the entire night.

As I setup the pa, I tried as some one suggested
 "Use a pair of XLR-TRS adapters and go into line inputs rather than mic inputs"   
This did not lower the level coming into the mixer at all.

I attached the -20 DB pads that I got from audiopile.net
I then turned the pioneer DJM mixer to max on the master and the CD level on the dj mixer almost to max.
the signal was still to hot. Once I activated the onboard pad on the Mixwiz. the Level was great, I trimmed up to  the proper level.  set the limiters.  I then backed down the DJ mixer to 3 o clock ( about 80 %) still showing red on the Dj mixer.

I then checked on the PA at every Dj switch over and about 1/2 through each dj's set.

2 Dj's maxed out the CD/Line inputs and the Master input on the DJ mixer . ( basically turning every gain up as high as possible )
In my experience the Dubstep step djs are the worst culprits of this. That night both dj's in question played dubstep.


I did not have 1 problem that night with the pa. The limit light never blinked on all night.  I had tons of head room the entire night.

This solves the major headache I get with DJ shows.. 
I even feel a Little bit more comfortable having a semi unattended pa for dj shows

[Jonathan Johnson]

What's more complicated, XLR-TRS adpaters or XLR pads?  It seems like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  At least the XLRs lock. 

It all depends on the configuration of the inputs on the mixer, but XLR-TRS adapters may be preferable. Reason is that using a pad and going through the XLR input of the mixer may result in greater attenuation and subsequent reamplification of the signal, with the inherent risk of raising the noise floor. Or to look at it on a gain stage graph, there would be a deeper dip in signal strength just before the channel strip.