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Author Topic: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9  (Read 30416 times)

Scott Wagner

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 06:21:35 PM »

The connection with SM on a laptop over wireless has never once given me an issue. It is as solid as it comes. The only thing that seems to be dodgy is the Ipad SM APP. Since going to a DHCP server set up I have not had an issue with the Ipad no matter what I do. As I mentioned the SM app on the Ipad only seemed to drop connection when you let it go to sleep, or you kill the app and then open it back up again. After re-establishing a new connection with the router ( from the Ipad ), if you never allow the Ipad to go to sleep, or close the app, you should never have an issue. That is not a fun way to run your show though. The other cool thing about running the router as a DHCP server is that you no longer have to go into network setting and re-configure again. The connection is automatic and all you would need to do to switch the network is to simply pick the new network and connect.
Your performance and stability improvements have absolutely nothing to do with the DHCP server (unless you simply had your static IP addressing wrong).  If you had your static IP addressing in order to begin with, it would be much more stable than a DHCP implementation.  Bob had it correct - the DHCP implementation is more likely to cause stability issues (and it will NEVER fix them).  Your experience simply implies that you had it wrong in the first place, not that DHCP magically made things more stable.
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Rob Spence

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airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 07:56:52 PM »

Your performance and stability improvements have absolutely nothing to do with the DHCP server (unless you simply had your static IP addressing wrong).  If you had your static IP addressing in order to begin with, it would be much more stable than a DHCP implementation.  Bob had it correct - the DHCP implementation is more likely to cause stability issues (and it will NEVER fix them).  Your experience simply implies that you had it wrong in the first place, not that DHCP magically made things more stable.

+1
After the DHCP server serves up the address information, it does not take part again until the address lease runs out (which should be many, like 24 or so, hours).


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Luke Geis

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 12:08:57 AM »

There was proper addressing going on with the conventional static address. This is of course the preferred way to run this, but I was getting drop outs. It has been an issue to the degree that Yamaha has released work around's for it. Keep in mind that it was only the IPAD that was unstable. The connection with the computer with a static address was solid. Yamaha's suggestion for the work around's is the DHCP server route. I simply did the suggestion and my experience with using an IPAD with the desk has gone from lament to much more joyous.

You both could give us a more detailed write up on what you would consider proper static addressing as it relates to the IPAD. That would be nice. Saying that DHCP didn't fix my problem doesn't help either of us much. Especially since it did fix the issue not only for me, but countless others. Be aware that most of us are probably running the latest IOS version with the latest Ipad SM app version. This DHCP method is also Yamaha's #1 work around.

If you two have never had connectivity issues with your IPAD to the desk, consider yourself lucky and one of the few and the proud. I'm not an IT network tech by any means, but I'm certainly not a slouch either. Perhaps you could do some tests and see what you find as to why the IPAD drops out?

Some more things of interest. I have blue tooth off and run an ipad that has no 4G network ability. I have a brand new IPAD 3 with very little to no apps. or added features on it. Straight out of the box I set the thing up to work with the LS9 and M7. Messaging, email and everything like that is turned off. It only has running what cannot be turned off and what is needed to of course connect to wireless networks. Since getting the IPAD stable I have not noticed any latency issues and everything is happy. DHCP server set up was my fix, whats yours?
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Luke Geis

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 01:30:18 AM »

I did some searching and found one of your methods. I will post here under quote:

Scott Wagner Posted:
Quote
In the audio world, it's best to keep networks as simple as possible.  While the subnet classes have been deprecated thanks to variable length subnet masking, they are still useful in that they are much easier for a novice to understand.  24 bit (or class C 255.255.255.0) subnet masks are probably the best choice for audio networks, since it is extremely rare to need more than 254 unique addresses (in each subnet) in an audio environment.  Keep in mind that the first address in a subnet (192.168.1.0 in a class C subnet for example) is the network itself, and the last address in a subnet (192.168.1.255 in a class C subnet) is the broadcast address (ie: all devices on that subnet will accept the packet).  That would leave a range of addresses available (192.168.1.[1-254]) for addressing each device.

Given the constraint that class C subnet masking will be used, the best choice for addressing would be to use the 192.168.[0-255].[1-254] private address space.  The first two octets (since they are 8 bits in length) are defined by RFC1918 as a private 16 bit (class B) address space that is easily configurable into 256 class C subnets.  The third octet (192.168.x) would define the network, and the fourth octet (192.168.[0-255].x) defines each device.  Traditionally, routers are assigned addresses at the beginning or end of the address space (192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.254 for example), but there are no requirements to do so other than tradition.

To summarize the TCP/IP Networking for Audio Dummies:
1.  Use the 192.168.[0-255].[1-254] address space
2.  Use 255.255.255.0 for all subnet masks
3.  Pick a number for the third octet to define your network (192.168.1 is a standard choice).
4.  Pick a number for the fourth octete to define each device (192.168.1.[1-254]).
5.  The "default gateway address" is whatever address you've assigned to your router (or 0.0.0.0 if you don't have a router).
6.  Remember that most audio networks are switched (instead of routed), since it's best to isolate production networks from the rest of the world.
7.  When deploying wireless, always enable the security to keep the punters out of your production network.

If you stick to these simple constraints, anyone can easily configure networks without ever having to understand binary (base2) mathmatics.

I had my IPAD set around the stock address of the LS9/M7 of 192.168.0.128. So I set my static addresses to 192.168.0.XXX, I used a formula that was simple for me to remember. I would use lower than 128 for my PC related stuff and above 128 for my MAC related stuff. I would usually give a couple addresses either way. So it was usually .126, or .130 for the last octet. I tried using lower addresses for the IPAD too and to no avail. The PC was always solid on the network and had never dropped a connection from the desk with this approach. The IPAD on the other hand was of no real stable use.

After having gone to DHCP server, I have roughly the same addresses, the IPAD usually gets 0.100 handed out, because it's the first to get connected. The PC will get 0.101. If I have played by the rules, then what else could have caused the dropouts that DHCP seems to have fixed?

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Mark McFarlane

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 03:30:52 AM »

There was proper addressing going on with the conventional static address. This is of course the preferred way to run this, but I was getting drop outs. It has been an issue to the degree that Yamaha has released work around's for it. ...

Luke can you share a link to Yamaha's paper on this workaround.  Using DHCP to improve stability is very counterintuitive to me, so I'm curious to see what Yamaha says.  Theoretically it should work as others have said, you get a lease and then DHCP is completely out of it for a day or a week or however you have the lease setup,...  The DHCP server is basically sucking up compute cycles on the AP that aren't needed, and it makes your network slightly less secure.

Maybe you didn't configure the DHCP server's lease time for a long enough period, or maybe there is/was a bug in iOS,...
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Scott Wagner

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 08:53:37 AM »

Luke can you share a link to Yamaha's paper on this workaround.  Using DHCP to improve stability is very counterintuitive to me, so I'm curious to see what Yamaha says.  Theoretically it should work as others have said, you get a lease and then DHCP is completely out of it for a day or a week or however you have the lease setup,...  The DHCP server is basically sucking up compute cycles on the AP that aren't needed, and it makes your network slightly less secure.

Maybe you didn't configure the DHCP server's lease time for a long enough period, or maybe there is/was a bug in iOS,...
The only issue that a DHCP server could possibly fix is improper IP addressing; other than that it's just overhead for the WAP/router's CPU and RAM.  IP addressing includes the IP address itself, subnet mask, and default gateway assignments.  Get any of those wrong or incomplete, and you have a problem.

Static addressing of infrastructure components is Industry Best Practice specifically because of it's stability.  DHCP is often deployed on network segments which contain large numbers of end-user devices for convenience (who wants to manage thousands of constantly changing end-user devices manually?).  With small networks (exactly what we're talking about here), DHCP is just unnecessary overhead.  Will it function?  Absolutely, although it will add latency.
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Luke Geis

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 06:30:30 PM »

link to yamaha work around's: http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/peripherals/applications/m7clstagemix/

The verbiage:

Since the release of iOS 6, your iPad may try to access the Internet at the time of selecting a Wi-Fi Network. Depending on the set-up or model of your Wi-Fi device (Router or Access Point), the message of "cannot connect with the Internet" may appear on your iPad screen and StageMix will be unable to connect with a console.
Internet access is unnecessary for the connection between StageMix and console, so should you experience this you can prevent this message from appearing by disabling "Redirect Function for Internet connection" of your Wi-Fi device. Please ask the Wi-Fi device manufacturer about the way to disable "Redirect Function for Internet connection".


The solution number 2 if 1 doesn't work:

( Wi-Fi device settings )
1. Login to your Wi-Fi device using a web browser etc. and enter the set-up page.
2. Enable the DHCP server function in the setting page of step 1.
3. Set the upper and lower limits of the IP addresses the DHCP server can assign.
Ensure your console's IP address is outside this range, or reserve its IP address.
4. Set the Subnet Mask to the same value as the console.
5. Set the Router (Gateway) and DNS address if necessary.
6. Store the changes to apply.
7. Re-boot your Wi-Fi device if necessary.

( iPad settings )
8. Open "Settings" application on your iPad.
9. Select Wi-Fi.
10. Tap [ >] of Wi-Fi Network you are using.
11. Select [DHCP] under IP address. The iPad will receive the necessary DHCP data from the Wi-Fi device. Tap [Renew Lease] if it does not.
12. Double check that there is no IP address conflict between the console and iPad
13. Double check the iPad has received correct data for the Router and DNS address.
14. Launch StageMix and connect it to the console.


Not certain what the redirect thing is about.  But I have not heard of any such thing on the IPAD. Having done the static address solution 100 times, with no love, solution two was the fix.

Now if addressing is the only thing I was doing wrong, then what was wrong? I'm pretty certain I had it right. I had proper IP addressing based on all the info that has currently been presented. Keep in mind I'm not arguing about which is better, or not as I realize that DHCP is not the highest performing way to go. But if it fixes the problem. I would like to see a good write up on what you guys do, that seem to have no issues. Perhaps I just need to place the network in a different third octet? I have told you what I did, what is wrong then? 

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Bob Charest

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 06:47:22 PM »

Hi David and Luke,

Here is the setup we use.

David, as we have an LS9-32, the laptop fits just to the left of the display area, so it doesn't use any more room - if you're using an LS9-16, no such luck.

Luke, am I one of the "both of you/you two" you mentioned? If not, you still might find the following information useful anyway, though we don't use Stage Mix for our production environment, so my setup is not the same as yours.

In any case, I hope this is helpful:

The hardware we're using that is networked:
1.) Yamaha LS9 (Cat5)
2.) Sennheiser Net1's (2 of them daisy-chained together with Cat5)
3.) HP Ultrabook (Cat5) with ASUS notebook as backup
4.) iPad (5GHz Wireless)
5.) Linksys E4200 Router (both 2.4 & 5 GHz)
6.) Bullet M5 Access Point (5GHz wireless with Cat5 to router)

Our software components:
1.) Sennheiser WSM
2.) Air Fader (Server Edition on HP Ultrabook, Client software on various Android devices)
3.) RealVNC (Server on HP Ultrabook, Viewer on iPad)
4.) Yamaha DME Network Driver, Studio Manager, LS9 Editor

Implementation steps:
Hard Code IP for Net-1 Units, Yamaha LS9, HP Ultrabook  & ASUS - Static IP’s for wired interfaces only
The Ubiquiti Bullet WAP is also assigned a static IP.

01.) Configure router to use 30 DHCP addresses (100-129), assign SSID with security (WEP)

02.) Assign wired IP addresses in range above DHCP pool: 192.168.1.130-144 (Except for Ubiquiti Bullet)
   a.) NET1-1 is 192.168.1.130
   b.) NET1-2 is 192.168.1.131
   c.) HP Ultrabook (Primary) is 192.168.1.132
   d.) ASUS Notebook (Backup) is 192.168.1.133
   e.) Yamaha LS9-32 is 192.168.1.135
   f.) Bullet M5 is 192.168.1.20 – I couldn’t seem to change this, so I left it the way I received it.

03.) Install Yamaha DME Network Driver, Studio Manager, LS9 Editor, Sennheiser WSM, & Air Fader Server
   a.) Install the Yamaha products in the order listed above following all documented steps.
   b.) Install Sennheiser WSM & Air Fader Server
04.) Install RealVNC Server on HP Ultrabook
05.) Download and install RealVNC Viewer for iPad

06.) Set Static IP addresses for Sennheiser Net1’s using Web interface then power cycle
07.) Set both PC Static IP addresses for the wired interface (Adapter Properties)
09.) Connect Daisy-Chained NET1’s to router (IP: 192.168.1.130 & 131)
10.) Connect HP Ultrabook to router (IP: 192.168.1.132)
11.) Connect Yamaha LS9 to router (IP: 192.168.1.135)
12.) Connect Bullet M5 to router (IP: 192.168.1.20)
13.) Ensure that you can connect to the Sennheiser Net1's with WSM
13.) Start RealVNC Server on HP Ultrabook (later set to start with Windows)
14.) Start Air Fader Server on HP Ultrabook and click connect – Ensure connection to LS9
15.) Using the iPad, connect to the SSID that the router is using with the assigned security (WEP)
16.) Start RealVNC Viewer on the iPad and connect to the wired IP for the HP Ultrabook (192.168.1.132)

17.) Install Air Fader Client software on Android device (phone or tablet)
18.) Configure client permissions on Air Fader Server
19.) Connect to Air Fader Server using the IP address of the HP Ultrabook (192.168.1.132) from Android devices - These connections use the 2.4GHz radio in the router
20.) Check that access to allowed IEM mixes is correct

We have the 5GHz radio in the router as a backup, but leave it off.

Best regards,
Bob Charest

PS: Glad this thread happened - my documentation was out of date!
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Bob Charest

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2013, 07:12:29 PM »

Hi Luke,

That doesn't sound like any fun at all! The one thing that jumped out at me from a previous post you made was that the 3rd octet of your addressing scheme was "0" and I would have expected it to be "1" - but it wouldn't have worked at all if it was in a different subnet.

I might be even less help than I would like as my iPad is a 1st generation, and, as I mentioned, I don't use Stage Mix.

Did it work at all with your static IP scheme? If not, I would suspect the 3rd octet was the bear in the woodpile. I've screwed that up myself before.

Best regards,
Bob Charest
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Luke Geis

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Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 07:43:33 PM »

Bob,

I was referring to Scott and Rob as the " two ". I didn't mean it in any derogatory way. They where the only two saying I did something wrong, but offered no ulterior solution. I was hoping I could prod them into giving some useful information.  Yes I could get it to work, but it was only for short bursts. Keep in mind that connection with a regular computer was solid as a rock. Only the IPAD had issues. I wouldn't expect the OCTET to be an issue since the addressing was correct, but it could be high in traffic? Hard to say since it didn't matter where I was, the result was the same. What I can confirm, is that as long as the Ipad was not allowed to go sleep once a fresh connection was made, it would talk just fine all day. As soon as you closed the lid ( making Ipad sleep ) or closed the app and the re-opened it, you would loose connection within a minute or two. It would re-connect and then drop again every few minutes. To me there is a sync issue with the ipad and the app. As long as the app was using the initial connection it was good. Upon a newly engaged connection ( from the app, not the wireless settings ) it would not hold that connection for long.


I did some more digging and it does appear that router settings could effect performance? The IPAD does not have a redirect function for internet connections. I tried messing with some router settings to see if performance improved. I tried these settings ( not all of them ): http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405997,00.asp

I changed the FT, RTS, Beacon interval, DTIM and turned off WMM and CTS and I also went to a long preamble instead of short. So far the stability is fine USING THE SAME ADDRESSES as before. So It may not always be an addressing problem. The IPAD may have issues with certain router settings? I got my router and only changed things like the SSID and security settings. The advanced stuff I left alone. Once I realized things were not gonna work that way I went to DHCP server status. That has now been disabled again and I am back to a static addressing set up. So far so good with about 30 min without connection loss.

Perhaps you guys could divulge router settings that may help?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:53:21 PM by Luke Geis »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: airport express vs. airport extreme for LS9
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 07:43:33 PM »


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