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Author Topic: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges  (Read 27912 times)

Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 10:36:08 AM »

Rude is a bunch of musicians on stage all playing different things at the same time at full bore, in a venue that has other things going on that the noise is disrupting. It's a two way street. We all have a job to do and when we can't get your attention in the normal way, sometimes you have to resort to unpractical manners.

I had a visiting engineer come in once and he directed me exactly how he wanted things set. I didn't touch a single knob that he didn't tell me to touch. One of the musicians came up to the mic and did something? Needless to say there was about the most unbelievable 2k squeal I have ever heard. I was standing near the board, so guess who gets yelled at. I was told that if I ever did that again he would shot me, he pointed his hand at me like a gun and made a gun like sound. I didn't do a single thing I wasn't told do by their engineer. Now that is rude.....

At practice last night I found out we will be using our chancel platform extension this year again for Easter. I immedately started trying to remember where I put the monster mats. That got me thinking about other people on here using wedges on resonant platforms. If a wedge is placed directly on our platform extension it excites in a way that robs clarity requiring more output for the team to "hear". When this came up a number of years ago at a dress rehearsal I tried all kinds of stuff to damp the resonance: carpet, carpet pad and foam from a chair bottom cushion the foam pads worked the best but looked bad and kept compressing, providing less and less isolation the longer they sat. I didn't think it would work for me to ask the pastor for a break in the service to fluff the wedges so I kept trying stuff. Eventually I tried the rear "monster" floor mats out of my Audi, they worked great. I ended up going to a local dismantler and scrounging the mats out of few wrecks. They are pliable rubber with lots of tall individual ridges that don't compress with our 12" coaxes sitting on them. I have also used them for outside events when the surface was wet to protect the wedges. They are obviously super durable and all the congregation can see is the finished edge.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2013, 03:00:41 PM »

Sounds good, we'll be looking into getting some powered speakers for side washes and a drum wedge in the near future. Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge? Should I get some tripod stands to put the side washes on? In our normal room I may be able to set them on those walls by the organ(on the right) and the piano(on the left) but when we play elsewhere we may need something to put them on.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Sorry to resurrect this post, but we haven't bought anything yet and I just saw these on CL: 2-Yamaha MSR250 with covers and 30' xlr/power cables for $500. They're somewhat cheaper than the Alto's that we've been looking at and cost more than them new. Would they work good for side washes and later floor wedges?

Here's a link to the ad: http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2013, 03:16:58 PM »

Sorry to resurrect this post, but we haven't bought anything yet and I just saw these on CL: 2-Yamaha MSR250 with covers and 30' xlr/power cables for $500. They're somewhat cheaper than the Alto's that we've been looking at and cost more than them new. Would they work good for side washes and later floor wedges?

Here's a link to the ad: http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html

Thanks,
Tommy Peel

Buying used always carries some risk, especially from "white van" sellers like Craigslist.

The other consideration in buying a bargain is whether or not you might be looking for more matching units down the line.  How available will they be?

Plus new = warranty.  Just some things to think about.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2013, 03:49:43 PM »

Buying used always carries some risk, especially from "white van" sellers like Craigslist.

The other consideration in buying a bargain is whether or not you might be looking for more matching units down the line.  How available will they be?

Plus new = warranty.  Just some things to think about.

All are good things to think about. I've had good luck buying from CL so far(iPad, Macbook Pro, mixer, various rack gear) but I know of people who haven't. I definitely don't buy on there unless I can verify that said equipment is working good(at least to the best of my ability).

As for being able to get matching units, I'm not too concerned about it, I'm thinking these(being 10" speakers) won't be very good for bass or drum monitors because of the limited bass response(correct me if I'm wrong). Ultimately I'd like to get a couple of 15" monitors for them or get new mains and use the current mains for monitor duty. These yamaha's (or the Alto's) would be primarily for the keyboard player and electric/acoustic guitar players; right now until more monitors are bought they'd be used as side washes.

Not having a warranty is a concern, does anybody know how reliable these speakers are?

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
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Jason Andreasen

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »

Sorry to re-resurrect this thread (it's close to Easter time, so I figure that's permissible).  Just thought I'd throw in my 2¢ on the IEM vs wedge topic.  This is based on my experience over the past several years and what we've found works well for us. 

About 7 years ago we moved into a new/bigger building.  Prior to that, we used a pretty rudimentary "IEM" system for the band - Rolls headphone amps with some decent Sony over-ear headphones, along with electronic drums.  The vocalists still used wedges.  In that building it was a necessity - terrible acoustics, and even the vocal wedges with almost no band mixed in tended to over power the main PA. 

When we moved to the new building, we were all excited because we could get rid of the headphones and use monitors.  We didn't have enough monitor mixes, and we were constantly getting into the "more me" spiral, so we always had issues with stage volume.  Every couple of months we'd have to remind everyone on stage to keep their levels down, and we'd force a "reset" on the monitor mixes to try to get it back under control.  Inevitably it would spiral out of control again.  Acoustic drums, bass amps, Marshall half-stacks, etc. 

A few years ago we moved to the Aviom system, moved amps off stage, enclosed the drums, etc.  The improvement in sound quality was astonishing - we're not running the overall congregation mix any quieter (in fact, maybe just a hair louder), but the clarity and intelligibility is a million times better.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as "cartoonish" sounding, but what we had before with the massive stage volume was just mush in the congregation and to be honest very fatiguing on the ears.  Now the sound guy actually has some control, and best of all each person on stage can control their mix and hear exactly what they want. 

That said, even a simple IEM system (should probably be calling this a "personal monitoring system") using the Rolls or Behringer headphone amps and relatively inexpensive IEM headphones could work extremely well if stage volume is a real issue.  As someone who has to deal with both ends of it (playing on stage sometimes, and running FOH sound some times), I think the benefits far outweigh the cons.  Yes, it does take a little time to get used to the "IEM sound" - it's very different from a wedge.  Stereo and ambience mics are not a necessity - nice if you can swing it, but you can still have a very effective IEM system without them.  I'd take a mono IEM system with no ambience any day over a wedge system and ringing ears after a set.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2013, 04:35:03 PM »

Sorry to re-resurrect this thread (it's close to Easter time, so I figure that's permissible).  Just thought I'd throw in my 2¢ on the IEM vs wedge topic.  This is based on my experience over the past several years and what we've found works well for us. 

About 7 years ago we moved into a new/bigger building.  Prior to that, we used a pretty rudimentary "IEM" system for the band - Rolls headphone amps with some decent Sony over-ear headphones, along with electronic drums.  The vocalists still used wedges.  In that building it was a necessity - terrible acoustics, and even the vocal wedges with almost no band mixed in tended to over power the main PA. 

When we moved to the new building, we were all excited because we could get rid of the headphones and use monitors.  We didn't have enough monitor mixes, and we were constantly getting into the "more me" spiral, so we always had issues with stage volume.  Every couple of months we'd have to remind everyone on stage to keep their levels down, and we'd force a "reset" on the monitor mixes to try to get it back under control.  Inevitably it would spiral out of control again.  Acoustic drums, bass amps, Marshall half-stacks, etc. 

A few years ago we moved to the Aviom system, moved amps off stage, enclosed the drums, etc.  The improvement in sound quality was astonishing - we're not running the overall congregation mix any quieter (in fact, maybe just a hair louder), but the clarity and intelligibility is a million times better.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as "cartoonish" sounding, but what we had before with the massive stage volume was just mush in the congregation and to be honest very fatiguing on the ears.  Now the sound guy actually has some control, and best of all each person on stage can control their mix and hear exactly what they want. 

That said, even a simple IEM system (should probably be calling this a "personal monitoring system") using the Rolls or Behringer headphone amps and relatively inexpensive IEM headphones could work extremely well if stage volume is a real issue.  As someone who has to deal with both ends of it (playing on stage sometimes, and running FOH sound some times), I think the benefits far outweigh the cons.  Yes, it does take a little time to get used to the "IEM sound" - it's very different from a wedge.  Stereo and ambience mics are not a necessity - nice if you can swing it, but you can still have a very effective IEM system without them.  I'd take a mono IEM system with no ambience any day over a wedge system and ringing ears after a set.

Thanks for another perspective. We haven't bought anything yet so, the thread is still very much relevant to us. Our stage volume is fairly under control; the only amp that's up very loud is the bass amp(when we get some subs and monitors we'll probably stop using it and get a SansAmp or similar product and ditch the bass amp) which keeps us from having to out too much of it through the mains. The electric guitar amp is mic'd, kept at a reasonable level, and aimed at the players head. I'd say the worst of the stage volume is from the drums, especially when the drummer gets "excited".  ;D

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2013, 01:46:28 PM »

I like the article on the Elite core to allow the IEM connection to a headphone amplifier. 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/church_sound_rehabbing_mic_stands_extending_personal_mixer_cables/church

If you pick the Behringer 4700 or 4600 they have an aux input plus the mix.  If the mixer has the Direct output for each channel you can take a tap from the direct output into the Behringer Aux input and have the more me. 
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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2013, 01:46:28 PM »


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