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Author Topic: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges  (Read 27908 times)

Tommy Peel

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Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2013, 10:26:05 AM »

It's more a comment on the Alto's tonality - they don't go very low.  A small sub driven at conservative levels works wonders, even on a small stage.  YMMV.  Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Alto SXM112.  Nothing else comes close at this price point, and they need surprisingly little EQ to sound good.  The knobs are vunerable, so you'll want to be careful with them.  The finish (simple textured paint) isn't very durable.  Hey, you get what you pay for.  Sonically, you get a bit more.

I'm hoping that when we get out monitor situation fixed we can get a sub or two next, but that's another topic for another day.


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Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 11:27:48 AM »

It's more a comment on the Alto's tonality - they don't go very low.  A small sub driven at conservative levels works wonders, even on a small stage.  YMMV.  Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Alto SXM112.  Nothing else comes close at this price point, and they need surprisingly little EQ to sound good.  The knobs are vunerable, so you'll want to be careful with them.  The finish (simple textured paint) isn't very durable.  Hey, you get what you pay for.  Sonically, you get a bit more.

I don't put bass or kick drum through any of my wedges.  If there's a need for that, a sub/wedge combo is my preference.  There are wedges which will handle LF, but they're not run-of-the-mill.  Neither are they compact and they'll need to be bi-amped and DSP'ed.

Yes, the knobs are vulnerable, so they need to have some casing or reinforced covers if you're going to move them.  If they're in a situation where they're left in place in an area with activity or traffic, I'd make sure to have some padded covers made with a pocket in the back with a stiff insert bridging the control panel area.

Use the covers when not in use.
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2013, 10:39:02 AM »

If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Dick is right on except, high quality full range acoustic instrument amps don't necessarily fail as vocal and instrument monitors if deployed correctly. We had a country/old time acoustic gospel group in a few years ago and they had effectively combined their backline and their monitor rig in to one. The guitar and dobro player were using top of the line Fishman and Trace amps tipped back at their feet, and the standup bass player had a Genz-Benz head with a twelve, two eights and a tweeter cabinet behind and to one side as he was using a mic instead of a pickup. They had a Proco splitter, a Roland analog rack mixer and three Audio arts notch filters racked together to control everything. Before I could even see how they wanted me to set out our wedges they were setup, rung out, and playing. I just plugged into the isolated outputs on their splitter for the house and tried to stay out their way. I walked the stage during warmup and those amps sounded surprisingly good doing double duty as instrument amps and stage monitors. They all had the ability to adjust the balance between their own instrument and their individual "monitor level" by varying the amps channel one and channel two level controls but I never saw them touch anything during the service.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:13:38 AM by Bob L. Wilson »
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2013, 11:10:57 AM »


We have talked about getting some powered wedges(if new we’ll get some Alto SXM112As(http://amzn.to/WYFFqS); if used, whatever is decent that we find on CL). That said I don’t like the idea of getting wedges because we normally play on a small stage and I think that we would end up with too much stage volume.


Herein lies the rub. In my experience the level required of the wedges so the players can "hear" is inversely related to the number of monitor mixes, the quality of the wedges and the number of wedges used. This leads to Bob's wedge axiom: Use more mixes, Use better wedges, Use more of them = Use lower levels. In an ideal world every player gets three wedges and three individualized mixes with nothing but their voice in the center wedge and whatever stereo mix they desire in the other two. Very few systems can support that many mixes but many can be configured to support individualized vocal mixes paired with one of two or three stereo mixes, say one for rhythm players, one for the front line players and one for the backup singers or choir.

The inverse of the axiom is just as true no stage will be louder than one with a single monitor mix through a few MI grade wedges.
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Luke Geis

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 04:58:17 PM »

A couple things about keyboard amps.  1. They are basically PA speakers. 2. They don't work very well as monitors. Yes they are getting the job done. But getting it done and doing it right are two things.

The reality about playing in venues and owning equipment is about knowing the limitations. If you have low end speakers that won't get very loud before feedback, you have no choice but to run them at a lower level. This may mean that you have to turn instruments down still for that mix to be heard. If a venue is not a rock concert venue ( like a church ) you don't need to be pushing 120db off the stage! Trust me, they can hear you. Being loud isn't as cool as it seems. But that's not the point. The point is that you can make anything you have work, it's just that you have to work with it. If there is a consistent problem from show to show, look within and don't blame anything but yourself. The equipment is not to blame, it's the user/operator. Bands produce 90% of their own problems. Volume is 90% of those problems. They rest is simply not deciding to make the change at the source of the problem. It's usually pretty simple, turn it down and everything gets to be heard.

As for the number of monitor mixes. This is one case where more may be better. It's easier to get intelligibility when each player has their own mix. This may help getting levels down. That does not mean 3 wedges per artist with a 3 channel LCR mix. A single wedge per artist with a stipulation that it is meant for vocals and un-amplified instruments ( not including drums ) is a good regimen. On a small stage having monitors may actually be more desirable? The reason being is that the lack of " space " between artists means that they are stepping all over each other. On larger stages the " space " is more open and it's easier to hear you own mix, but you usually need more things in it to hear everything else well.

When you do two mixes spread between 4 band members, there is always compromise. You are sharing the mix and everything in it. This includes stuff you don't want at levels you don't want. This is another big proponent to the " more me " syndrome. It's the snowball effect. He gets more, I need more and the circle repeats.

Another big thing that many don't consider is that over time you lose sensitivity to hearing when in a loud environment. So the " MIX " seems to change as things you heard easier before are not as loud as they used to be to you. Your hearing starts to get shot and you find yourself asking for more. This hearing loss is sort of frequency dependent. The lows come through easier simply because you can feel it and the highs start to fade away. So things lose clarity and a mix that may have been dark already, becomes even darker. Intelligibility goes down and volume is usually the snake oil.

More food for thought? I think that the IEM approach would be better overall. Price doesn't seem to work, so getting conventional mixes is the only other option. Getting something that has good clarity is the key. You don't want low end monitors as they don't always help. If your already a loud band and are not willing to change that characteristic, then having a good clear monitor is key. Mr. Rees seems to like the ALTO's and they are affordable. For a little more you can get the EV Live-X series and it will have more volume. Whether you can get more volume before feedback is the question? It may behoove you to see if you can find these things locally and try them out. Guitar center has a pretty good return policy and it may help you try before you buy. 
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2013, 05:17:02 PM »


The reality about playing in venues and owning equipment is about knowing the limitations. If you have low end speakers that won't get very loud before feedback, you have no choice but to run them at a lower level.

Sorry, but I couldn't read the rest of the post without questioning this statement.  If you really mean that the threshold of feedback is somehow dependent on the "quality" of the speakers, we have to stop right there.

The capability of a system to produce a usable amount of sound before feedback depends on the entire system setup, not speaker "quality".  I refer to the old maxim "loudest sound at the mic wins".  Whether the "loudest sound" comes from an inexpensive speaker or a highly-engineered, state of the art speaker, the threshold of feedback is governed by total system balance. A cheap speaker will not differ from an expensive speaker if the sound from said speaker at the microphone starts a self-reinforcing loop.

Granted, a more highly-engineered speaker which exhibits significant pattern control may allow more volume "out front" before feedback happens, but simply attributing the feedback threshold to the "cheapness" of the box is a bit of a blanket statement.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 05:59:59 PM by dick rees »
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2013, 06:05:29 PM »

Herein lies the rub. In my experience the level required of the wedges so the players can "hear" is inversely related to the number of monitor mixes, the quality of the wedges and the number of wedges used. This leads to Bob's wedge axiom: Use more mixes, Use better wedges, Use more of them = Use lower levels. In an ideal world every player gets three wedges and three individualized mixes with nothing but their voice in the center wedge and whatever stereo mix they desire in the other two. Very few systems can support that many mixes but many can be configured to support individualized vocal mixes paired with one of two or three stereo mixes, say one for rhythm players, one for the front line players and one for the backup singers or choir.

The inverse of the axiom is just as true no stage will be louder than one with a single monitor mix through a few MI grade wedges.

Well I'd love to have that many mixes, although if I could get 3 wedges and mixes per person we could easily afford to get IEM's. That said I'm sure your system works. Eventually we'll get to the point where we'll have 4 mixes(max our board can do) for our 5-6 musicians on 4-6 wedges.

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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2013, 09:33:10 AM »

Well I'd love to have that many mixes, although if I could get 3 wedges and mixes per person we could easily afford to get IEM's.

Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.
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Tommy Peel

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Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2013, 10:39:43 AM »

Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.

I can see how this can be an issue, however the church I attend on Sundays(of which I have nothing to do with the sound) has IEMs, no amps on stage, and a partial drum cage and they always have excellent sound. While this may be the exception, the setup does work well but it requires good mixing and a well tuned system. I don't see us being able to afford going to a setup like this in the neat future though.

Last night at our bands service things went well; the singers stayed on their mics and everything sounded good(despite not having any real monitors yet). I also used a technique that I read somewhere on the forum of pulling out critical vocal frequencies(around 2k where i normally boost the lead vocals high mid eq)from other channels(mainly the acoustic guitar and keys). I didn't have to pull very much out of those channels but it seemed to make a huge difference in the intelligibility of the vocals.

Anyway hopefully in the next couple of weeks we'll be getting some real monitors.


Thanks,
Tommy


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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 01:21:09 PM »

Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.

I have heard 4 singers and one of them with a guitar on a stage with one microphone, no monitors, no IEMs  just them and one mic.  They constantly rearranged them selves to "mix" there sound.  Different ones would move in front of the mic for a solo or lead part. It sounded great.

I work in a old church with a small platform that is completely unstable for a worship team.  The team is arranged in the only space available.  Four singers, one acoustic guitar, one electric guitar, a grand piano and a drum kit (no aquarium) right in front of the piano.  The nearest member of the congregation is about 8 ft away.  IEMs with personal mixers are the Silver Bullet in this case.  I would not be without them.  Our sound was good before we had them, now it is great.
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Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 01:21:09 PM »


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