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[Tommy Peel]

I’ve posted a little bit about my bands monitor situation but I’m wanting to get some opinions about what the best move for us is. We are currently using 3 small guitar and keyboard amps as monitors; these are fed from 2 of the auxes on our Mackie Onyx 1640 through a Mackie headphone amp(which was a freebie thrown in with our mixer) that has balanced inputs. We currently have a 16x4 100ft snake that is on indefinite loan from a friend and we run our mains in stereo which leaves us 2 returns for monitors; we, on occasion, use all 16 of the sends for inputs. I’m planning to get a couple of 100ft xlr cables so I can get 4 monitor mixes to stage as this is much cheaper than getting a bigger snake. We are a full worship band doing fairly loud contemporary music; we use acoustic drums that are usually mic’d up. We have to assemble and tear down our system, except for the main speakers, every week for our Tuesday night service. We also occasionally do youth rallies(or similar events) at other locations. It’s worth noting that the band members regularly switch instruments(2 or 3 of them can play anything on the stage) sometimes during the service/set.

We have talked about getting some powered wedges(if new we’ll get some Alto SXM112As(http://amzn.to/WYFFqS); if used, whatever is decent that we find on CL). That said I don’t like the idea of getting wedges because we normally play on a small stage and I think that we would end up with too much stage volume.

We can’t afford to get wireless IEMs(unless those $200 Galaxy Audio setups(http://bit.ly/151EsFD) on Musicians Friend are any good, which I doubt) so I’m trying to figure out a budget wired setup. I’ve had a couple of the band members try out using our HP amp with some inexpensive(but much better than the typical “Apple” earbuds) earbuds that provide some decent isolation. The biggest complaint I had about the setup I tried was that is sounded like they were in a can; probably due to it being a mono mix. I don’t see how, with our current setup, I can get stereo mixes from the mixer. I’m thinking about getting one of these Behringer Monitor Mixers(http://amzn.to/WYFz2k) for each band member. I can then setup some ambient mics plugged into my M-Audio Audio Buddy dual mic preamp. The preamps would be connected to the right and left inputs on my HP amp; the HP amp would provide a stereo ambient mix to each personal mixer. The monitor mixes from FOH would be sent to the mic input on each personal mixer; with this setup each musician could dial in how much of each he/she needs. I’m hoping that this will reduce the “feeling like I’m in a can” complaints.

Which setup sounds like the best option, IEMs or wedges? What are the cheapest IEM headphones that are good enough to use(universal fit)? Is there a better setup than what I’m proposing that can get the job done for a similar amount of money? What type of mic make the best ambient mic? I think we are looking to spend around $600 right now(which I realize will only get us 2 wedges). We currently don’t have any GEQ for monitors(or mains) but monitor feedback(or main feedback) hasn’t been too much of a problem so far so I’m not too worried about the lack of EQ at the moment. If our band starts growing and we have the means we may end up going to a digital board in the next few years so I hate to buy a bunch of outboard gear now if I can avoid it(this also has kept us from wanting to upgrade our snake).

Sorry for writing a book, but I wanted to provide as much info as possible.


Thanks for the help,
Tommy Peel

[Frank DeWitt]

I'll comment on a few things.

IEMs are better then wedges.   Way better.  Better input for the talent, Lower stage volume. Cleaner better sound to the congregation.  (The sound from wedges goes into the microphones along with the singers and gives a muddy sound.)

We found that all stage volume went down including the drum kit and piano.  They did not need to play so loud in order to here them selves.

An ambient mic will help the  "in a can" problem.  Place it up near the WT so they don't get a delay.  What mic you use is not real important.

You can also get personal mixers from Rolls  http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM55 and http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

IEMs and personal mixers would be even better but cost more.  About $1500 plus some used laptops for control surfaces for a 16 person 16 ch system (SAC)

The band will need to understand that just as with wedges, the best sound is not on the platform.  They are ministering and the IEMs should give them the beat and there place, not great music.  The great music goes to the congregation.

[chris harwood]

Or the great music goes to God...  congregations are typically invited along, with leading from the team.  :-D

Frank has a good point that many inexperienced musicians feel they need to get a "final mix" in there personal monitor.  Typically, I could care less what the 2nd chair piccolo-ist is playing....

[Tommy Peel]

I'll comment on a few things.

IEMs are better then wedges.   Way better.  Better input for the talent, Lower stage volume. Cleaner better sound to the congregation.  (The sound from wedges goes into the microphones along with the singers and gives a muddy sound.)

We found that all stage volume went down including the drum kit and piano.  They did not need to play so loud in order to here them selves.

An ambient mic will help the  "in a can" problem.  Place it up near the WT so they don't get a delay.  What mic you use is not real important.

You can also get personal mixers from Rolls  http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM55 and http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

IEMs and personal mixers would be even better but cost more.  About $1500 plus some used laptops for control surfaces for a 16 person 16 ch system (SAC)

The band will need to understand that just as with wedges, the best sound is not on the platform.  They are ministering and the IEMs should give them the beat and there place, not great music.  The great music goes to the congregation.

The band definitely understands that their mix won't be as good as the FOH; they've been dealing with some pretty bad mixes for a while now and we are just trying to get it where they can hear each other(and themselves) better. I'm hoping that with a better mix the singers will stop wandering off of their mics so much. :-)

Those Rolls boxes are nice, I may get the 3ch version for drums so he can play a click track if needed. The issue is that they're almost 3x the cost of the Behringer units(although they may well be worth it).

What I'm hoping to go to in the future is one of the smaller x32s(maybe an iPad controlled x32 Rack) and the Behringer personal mixers, but this is a long way down the road.

[Frank DeWitt]

I note that B+H photo has customer reviews on both the  Behringer and the Rolls
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/643697-REG/Rolls_PM55_PM55_Personal_Monitor_Amp.html

[Luke Geis]

The conventional wedge setup will be the cheapest way to go, but as mentioned will have it's downsides. Also to fit in the budget your looking at the wedges won't be that great. The IEM approach will cost more, but has a few downsides as well. The stereo mix thing is pretty mush a must, as mono mixes do sound pretty boring. Another thing is that without FX in the ears it also sounds really up front and uninspiring. You may find that what you need is a dedicated monitor desk that can do stereo mixes and patch in some FX. You only need a desk big enough to deal with about 16 inputs ( you don't need every channel in the monitors ) to get a good mix going. Depending on how many band members there are you may even be able to get away with a normal desk. You can cheat and use sub groups routed as stereo pairs, the main out and then mix auxes as stereo pairs. A typical 16.4.2 could handle this. Presonus SL comes to mind. The only real expense would be the IEM's for the band. I would make it so each member acquires their own. They will likely never need to get a new unit and they can take it with them when they leave the band? I think a decent $600 unit would do well for your level. I prefer Sennheiser over Shure, but that is opinion. IEM's are hard to get into because the cost seems high, but in reality it's about the same as conventional wedges after you factor in power amps and cabling. If each member just commits and saves up to buy the same units, they will have something they can use for a long time. Do the same for wedges and what do you get?

[Tommy Peel]

The conventional wedge setup will be the cheapest way to go, but as mentioned will have it's downsides. Also to fit in the budget your looking at the wedges won't be that great. The IEM approach will cost more, but has a few downsides as well. The stereo mix thing is pretty mush a must, as mono mixes do sound pretty boring. Another thing is that without FX in the ears it also sounds really up front and uninspiring. You may find that what you need is a dedicated monitor desk that can do stereo mixes and patch in some FX. You only need a desk big enough to deal with about 16 inputs ( you don't need every channel in the monitors ) to get a good mix going. Depending on how many band members there are you may even be able to get away with a normal desk. You can cheat and use sub groups routed as stereo pairs, the main out and then mix auxes as stereo pairs. A typical 16.4.2 could handle this. Presonus SL comes to mind. The only real expense would be the IEM's for the band. I would make it so each member acquires their own. They will likely never need to get a new unit and they can take it with them when they leave the band? I think a decent $600 unit would do well for your level. I prefer Sennheiser over Shure, but that is opinion. IEM's are hard to get into because the cost seems high, but in reality it's about the same as conventional wedges after you factor in power amps and cabling. If each member just commits and saves up to buy the same units, they will have something they can use for a long time. Do the same for wedges and what do you get?

If I was going to buy a board to do monitors with I'd be one of those new smaller x32s(probably paired with personal mixers) that are coming out soon; I could use that for monitors and FOH. Not that I don't like the PreSonus stuff but the new Behringer boards out class them pretty easily in terms of features to dollars(not that we can afford either right now). But getting wireless IEMs and another board are out of our price range for now...

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

If I was going to buy a board to do monitors with I'd be one of those new smaller x32s(probably paired with personal mixers) that are coming out soon; I could use that for monitors and FOH. Not that I don't like the PreSonus stuff but the new Behringer boards out class them pretty easily in terms of features to dollars(not that we can afford either right now). But getting wireless IEMs and another board are out of our price range for now...

It's a matter of getting everyone together and establishing priorities, then finding a way to implement them with what you have and what you can afford to add.  If you're limited in money, look to maximize what you do have through cooperation and imagination.

I would suggest you start by working without any PA whatsoever, focusing on placement and volume of amps.  Find a formation where everyone can hear what they need to hear as much as possible with no mains and no monitors.

Now add voices to the PA and re-evaluate your positioning to see if some adjustments can either maintain or improve upon your use without PA.  Then GENTLY add instruments to the mix without overwhelming your ability to amplify the voices.

I would recommend you use side-wash monitors for the vocals and keep the instruments under control so as not to overwhelm them.

Lastly, add any spot  monitors which you might need (vocals for the drummer, for example).  If you follow this procedure together and carefully work to maintain a "natural" balance throughout, you'll end up with a workable outcome by spending time together on the "problem" and not spending money.  You'll find out how much volume you can coherently put out with what you have and what talent/cooperation you can bring to bear.  I would wager that if you're all really together in the effort, that will be better than any sheer volume you can add by buying more gear.......which you'll still have to learn how to use by going through the process I've lined out.

Simply buying technology to solve a situation such as this often involves spending enough money to come to the conclusion that what you needed to do all along was just get better at working together  without complex and costly machinery.

[Tommy Peel]

It's a matter of getting everyone together and establishing priorities, then finding a way to implement them with what you have and what you can afford to add.  If you're limited in money, look to maximize what you do have through cooperation and imagination.

I would suggest you start by working without any PA whatsoever, focusing on placement and volume of amps.  Find a formation where everyone can hear what they need to hear as much as possible with no mains and no monitors.

Now add voices to the PA and re-evaluate your positioning to see if some adjustments can either maintain or improve upon your use without PA.  Then GENTLY add instruments to the mix without overwhelming your ability to amplify the voices.

I would recommend you use side-wash monitors for the vocals and keep the instruments under control so as not to overwhelm them.

Lastly, add any spot  monitors which you might need (vocals for the drummer, for example).  If you follow this procedure together and carefully work to maintain a "natural" balance throughout, you'll end up with a workable outcome by spending time together on the "problem" and not spending money.

Simply buying technology to solve a situation such as this often involves spending enough money to come to the conclusion that what you needed to do all along was just get better at working together  without complex and costly machinery.

Sounds like a good plan although we run all instruments direct with amps on stage just loud enough for the player to hear. The keyboard is a midi controller that operates GarageBand on the lead singer's Macbook so it will have to run through the system.  The bass amp is probably the loudest amp on stage and it's aimed up and toward the audience; the electric guitar amp is aimed across the stage and kept pretty low. The other amps are connected like powered wedges and fed from 2 of the auxes. We've been getting a pretty good FOH mix for a while now so I'm a little reluctant to mess with it too much and the stage volume is under pretty good control except for the drums. The main issue is the musicians not hearing each other very well. We'll definitely try to spend some more time trying to dial in what we have though. I'm hoping that if we can get the monitor situation better that the bass and electric guitar amps will "go away."


Thanks,
Tommy

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

The main issue is the musicians not hearing each other very well.

Thanks,
Tommy

Just what do they need to hear that they aren't hearing now?  Hear each other doing what?

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