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Author Topic: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?  (Read 15881 times)

Ben.Hunsicker

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I lead worship at a mid-size church that has put a good deal of money renovating our old gymnasium into a contemporary facility. Here is a rough drawing of the layout:

As you can see, we play to the middle third of the gym (which is still a decent size area ~30'x60'.) One of the best investments made was the addition of these really thick, floor-to-ceiling curtains that come out on tracks and cut the gym in to thirds. They absorb a massive amount of sound, and really help to deaden what would be a horribly live-sounding room. There's still a bit of natural reverb, but it sounds more like a club than a gym with the curtains in place. The consensus is that the curtains were a great idea, but the original speaker placement was a poor decision. Here is a diagram of the original speaker placement (above) and the current/modified placement (below):


As you can see in the original design, there were 2 1x15" Yorkville speakers flown above the pulpit pointed at the 3-4th rows. They also flew 2 1x15" Peavy speakers (and ran them on a delay) over the last row of chairs and pointed them at the back wall! Only the people in the 3-4th rows ever said the sound was decent. We got complaints from every other section of the room about being unable to hear anything. Also, there was no subwoofer in the original plan, so someone built us a 2x15" sub out of a wooden box, and set it to the left of the stage. It puts out minimal low end, and no one is really sure of the wattage.

When I got there, I made a few changes. First off, I unplugged the "delayed" pair of speakers. We don't use them at all. I also found these 2 1x15" JBL powered speakers on really old-rickety tripods in a closet and put them to use:


The coverage has been greatly improved, but we have to drag them out onto the floor every week.

Anyway, we've been wanting to go to something more professional looking and more permanently seated (strongly considering Yamaha's DSR series. I've A/B's them with their JBL and QSC counterparts and like the Yamaha's myself. I have not heard the EV's, Peavy's or Carvins.)

I was looking at the 1x18" subs and pairing them with the 2x15" mains. I am thinking of stacking them on either side of the stage (where the boxed 'X" is on the diagram.) Before I pulled the trigger though, I just wanted to see if anyone out there thinks this would be a bad idea? My reasoning is that with the current setup of triangulating the JBL's (using the Yorkvilles for fills only at about half the volume), we've gotten a much more consistent sound. Stepping up the game with decent subs and taller mains to reinforce what the JBL's were doing seems like the practical solution. My budget is around $4k.

Thanks for any suggestions and honest discussion!
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 04:18:28 PM »


I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER". Groucho Marx

1)You don't want the services of any contractor that says they can do this job for $4K.
2)The coverage on the Yorkvilles can't be as bad as the yellow color indicates unless they are: hurt, aimed crazy, or the horns are oriented the wrong way. Get them down, then check, test, repair, redeploy properly, and reevaluate. Given model number and how high off the floor, one can speculate about coverage vs installation angle, but the only way to proceed from those speculations is install, evaluate, iterate.
3)No way the coverage on Eons is that green area. If a worse performing major brand active speaker exists than early generations of JBL Eons I have not had the displeasure to hear them. Attach ropes go fishing.
4)The people are probably hearing plenty but they can't understand what they are hearing.
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Josh Daws

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 08:12:12 PM »

I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER". Groucho Marx

1)You don't want the services of any contractor that says they can do this job for $4K.
2)The coverage on the Yorkvilles can't be as bad as the yellow color indicates unless they are: hurt, aimed crazy, or the horns are oriented the wrong way. Get them down, then check, test, repair, redeploy properly, and reevaluate. Given model number and how high off the floor, one can speculate about coverage vs installation angle, but the only way to proceed from those speculations is install, evaluate, iterate.
3)No way the coverage on Eons is that green area. If a worse performing major brand active speaker exists than early generations of JBL Eons I have not had the displeasure to hear them. Attach ropes go fishing.
4)The people are probably hearing plenty but they can't understand what they are hearing.

not to mention current phasing issues and mismatched speakers...
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Tom Young

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 09:19:40 PM »

The consensus is that the curtains were a great idea, but the original speaker placement was a poor decision.

Yup. You all got real lucky when someone put in the curtains. But are they fire treated/rated ?

Quote
Anyway, we've been wanting to go to something more professional looking and more permanently seated (strongly considering Yamaha's DSR series. I've A/B's them with their JBL and QSC counterparts and like the Yamaha's myself. I have not heard the EV's, Peavy's or Carvins.)

I also like the Yamaha's. The others may be fine depending on model and how well they cover.  Avoid Carvin at all cost.

Quote
I was looking at the 1x18" subs and pairing them with the 2x15" mains. I am thinking of stacking them on either side of the stage (where the boxed 'X" is on the diagram.)

Ground stacked invariably means that it will be too loud in front in order for it to be loud enough in the rear.  You should fly whatever you decide on (because it places the speakers more equidistant to the listeners, not to mention that they don't need to be moved, etc) but you must not undertake this on your own. You need a structural engineer and an installer with experience with this. This is a life-safety *and* a liability issue.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 08:00:51 AM »

As you can see, we play to the middle third of the gym (which is still a decent size area ~30'x60'.) One of the best investments made was the addition of these really thick, floor-to-ceiling curtains that come out on tracks and cut the gym in to thirds. They absorb a massive amount of sound, and really help to deaden what would be a horribly live-sounding room. There's still a bit of natural reverb, but it sounds more like a club than a gym with the curtains in place.
Tom brought up a good point on the material being fire retardant and a related aspect is if they impact egress, block sight of fire exit signage, etc.  Hopefully whoever recommended, sold and installed them addressed those issues.

The consensus is that the curtains were a great idea, but the original speaker placement was a poor decision. Here is a diagram of the original speaker placement (above) and the current/modified placement (below):
I agree with Bob that while the sketches may provide some idea of the location and aiming of the speakers, they do not accurately reflect the actual coverage of the speakers.

As you can see in the original design, there were 2 1x15" Yorkville speakers flown above the pulpit pointed at the 3-4th rows. They also flew 2 1x15" Peavy speakers (and ran them on a delay) over the last row of chairs and pointed them at the back wall! Only the people in the 3-4th rows ever said the sound was decent. We got complaints from every other section of the room about being unable to hear anything. Also, there was no subwoofer in the original plan, so someone built us a 2x15" sub out of a wooden box, and set it to the left of the stage. It puts out minimal low end, and no one is really sure of the wattage.

When I got there, I made a few changes. First off, I unplugged the "delayed" pair of speakers. We don't use them at all. I also found these 2 1x15" JBL powered speakers on really old-rickety tripods in a closet and put them to use:
It might help if you could provide the actual models of the Yorkville and Peavey speakers as well as information such as how high they were flown, what other related equipment you have (mixer, processing, amplifier(s), etc.) and whether you mix in mono or 'stereo'.

Anyway, we've been wanting to go to something more professional looking and more permanently seated (strongly considering Yamaha's DSR series. I've A/B's them with their JBL and QSC counterparts and like the Yamaha's myself. I have not heard the EV's, Peavy's or Carvins.)
When looking at these have you been considering their pattern and the resulting coverage, how they mount, how you would get power to them, etc?

I was looking at the 1x18" subs and pairing them with the 2x15" mains.
Unless you know you absolutely need the couple of extra dB of output then since you are planning on also using subwoofers there would usually be no reason to use a dual 15" main.  Because of the subs you would not really benefit from the extended low frequency response of the DSR215 while since it has no fly points or pole cup and weighs 110lbs., it is pretty much limited to being ground stacked.  In fact for portable use with subwoofers many would likely consider the single 12" driver DSR112 version since it weighs less than half as much as the dual 15" version and can be flown or stacked.
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Ben.Hunsicker

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »

I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER". Groucho Marx

1)You don't want the services of any contractor that says they can do this job for $4K.
2)The coverage on the Yorkvilles can't be as bad as the yellow color indicates unless they are: hurt, aimed crazy, or the horns are oriented the wrong way. Get them down, then check, test, repair, redeploy properly, and reevaluate. Given model number and how high off the floor, one can speculate about coverage vs installation angle, but the only way to proceed from those speculations is install, evaluate, iterate.
3)No way the coverage on Eons is that green area. If a worse performing major brand active speaker exists than early generations of JBL Eons I have not had the displeasure to hear them. Attach ropes go fishing.
4)The people are probably hearing plenty but they can't understand what they are hearing.

1) Since our budget is so low, we are pretty much forced to DIY.
2) Coverage shown is in no way approximate, more of just a basic visual representation.
3) See (2)
4) I agree.
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Ben.Hunsicker

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 10:36:23 AM »

Yup. You all got real lucky when someone put in the curtains. But are they fire treated/rated ?

I also like the Yamaha's. The others may be fine depending on model and how well they cover.  Avoid Carvin at all cost.

Ground stacked invariably means that it will be too loud in front in order for it to be loud enough in the rear.  You should fly whatever you decide on (because it places the speakers more equidistant to the listeners, not to mention that they don't need to be moved, etc) but you must not undertake this on your own. You need a structural engineer and an installer with experience with this. This is a life-safety *and* a liability issue.


Yes, they have been fire-treated. One of the reasons (I should have mentioned) on going with the 215's with the 1x18's is the ability to move them outside. We do an annual outdoor event and have always had to rent a PA for $500. The YAMAHA setup is in hope to move them outdoors and have decent coverage for the stage area, while still maintaining a decent setup indoors. I know this thinking won't make me any friends here, because you want to match the speakers to the venue, but we won't be able to fly anything outside.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »


Yes, they have been fire-treated. One of the reasons (I should have mentioned) on going with the 215's with the 1x18's is the ability to move them outside. We do an annual outdoor event and have always had to rent a PA for $500. The YAMAHA setup is in hope to move them outdoors and have decent coverage for the stage area, while still maintaining a decent setup indoors. I know this thinking won't make me any friends here, because you want to match the speakers to the venue, but we won't be able to fly anything outside.

I see no reason to use 2x15s with a sub. Get a decent pair of 12s to go with the 18 and use the right size amps. Need more? Get more (of the same) cabs...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:35:10 PM by Jason Lucas »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 01:28:29 PM »

One of the reasons (I should have mentioned) on going with the 215's with the 1x18's is the ability to move them outside. We do an annual outdoor event and have always had to rent a PA for $500. The YAMAHA setup is in hope to move them outdoors and have decent coverage for the stage area, while still maintaining a decent setup indoors. I know this thinking won't make me any friends here, because you want to match the speakers to the venue, but we won't be able to fly anything outside.
I'm not sure I follow.  The DSR112, DSR115 and DSR215 seem to all have the same horn and same basic pattern so there would not seem to be much difference between them in terms of coverage.
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Samuel Rees

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 03:52:54 PM »

I see no reason to use 2x15s with a sub. Get a decent pair of 12s to go with the 18 and use the right size amps. Need more? Get more (of the same) cabs...

I don't think that is a conclusion follows. Not to say that anyone shouldn't get 12s or something else, but SRX725s and 718s/728s is pretty tried and true configuration and 725s obv. have 2x15"s. They should focus on things like coverage, SPL, genre, budget, amps / processing, and other factors instead of making a generic conclusion about 2x15s.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 04:10:10 PM »

Need more? Get more (of the same) cabs...

Nope.  Just getting "more of the same" only works if they're designed to be arrayed.  None of the stuff discussed here works with more than 2/side and even then those two boxes properly splayed will be covering close to 180 degrees.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »

Nope.  Just getting "more of the same" only works if they're designed to be arrayed.  None of the stuff discussed here works with more than 2/side and even then those two boxes properly splayed will be covering close to 180 degrees.

Sorry, misunderstanding on my part. Thanks for the clarification.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 04:46:48 PM »

I don't think that is a conclusion follows. Not to say that anyone shouldn't get 12s or something else, but SRX725s and 718s/728s is pretty tried and true configuration and 725s obv. have 2x15"s. They should focus on things like coverage, SPL, genre, budget, amps / processing, and other factors instead of making a generic conclusion about 2x15s.

I thought 2x15"s were generally used for full range cabs? That's why I figured they were a poor match for 18s but I guess I was mistaken.

I agree that SPL, genre, budget, etc are more important.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »

Dual 15" 2-way is a cheap way to make noise.  The 15's sorta cover part of the sub bass region and sort of cover part of the upper mid range, the horn typically  doesn't cover up very high.  How many "pro" speakers do this vs  4 way?
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2013, 05:00:20 PM »

I am working with another gym similar setup.  Problem was the long reverb and still is. 
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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2013, 05:10:04 PM »

I am working with another gym similar setup.  Problem was the long reverb and still is.

What "Room EQ Wizard" generates that screen shot?
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2013, 05:50:57 PM »

We are mounting a EV 2010 with 60 x 40 horn center stage ceiling aimed on center court and rear. 

With EQ wizard showing a reverb in the 300ms time on many of the frequencies it will be difficult to dry up and cut down on the active room this large. 

We also ran some pink noise and monitored with a Behringer ECM8000 mic and True Audio RTA software and found that the back half of the room from the center line between baskets was loosing highs from 3k to 20k.  When the maintenace crew gets the box mounted we should see a big change on some of the clarity. 

Then they also plan to build broad band absorbers from two inch OC703 and mount 4 to 6 absorbers along the back wall to help reduce any slap back echo from the horn.  We tested on stage floor and impressed the maintenance people with how powerful this horn is. 
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Brad Weber

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 07:45:27 AM »

With EQ wizard showing a reverb in the 300ms time on many of the frequencies it will be difficult to dry up and cut down on the active room this large.
Nice graph, but I'm not sure how useful the information is for assessing the room acoustics.  Reverb in a gym is likely to be more in terms of seconds than milliseconds, the amplitude scale is less than 24dB from the peak level to the lowest level shown and I'd be much more concerned about the decay up in the speech frequencies. 
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 09:09:52 AM »

Correct on that.  It was able to show the maintenance people that there was no decay as in the lower section on vlf like the 80 and 100 area.  Now they understand that we are moving them to a single source on the ceiling for the back of the room with the ability to reach the back.  Have the strong 3k to 15k will help the sound.  The next item is getting the OC703 into absorber pannels onto the rear walls with two large corner traps.   Also the purchase of two good subs with 1000 watt or 2000 watt amp.  The budget is the big problem, They have none.   The front of the gym along the stage is covered with some 12 inch Yamaha speakers and they are mounted on the left and right walls of the stage.  They cover the area in the front of the stage very nicely similar to the plot he has on the green.  They only reach the center line from basket to basket and start to loose the 3k to 15k range in the back that was why we added the medium reach horn center stage on ceiling with down angle to put the bottom 20 degrees of the 40 degree around the center and pointing to the rear. 

They were overheating the amp trying to get speakers to reproduce the 60 to 150 hz range and I told them and adjusted it because the 12's just are not meant to do sub duty in that size room.   

They were trying to use radio shack wireless lapel in the room and it would not work for them.  I found an ebay sale on AT T-27 50mw lapel and R11 receiver for 50 and purchased for them.   This now allows the people to walk around the gym from corner to corner full perimeter and allows us to locate vhf antenna's in the room. 
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 10:44:19 AM »

What "Room EQ Wizard" generates that screen shot?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ it can't do everything a full seat of Smaart, TEF, etc can do but it does do enough to overwhelm most amateurs and it is free.
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Benjamin Gingerich

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 11:35:43 AM »

D

Yes, they have been fire-treated. One of the reasons (I should have mentioned) on going with the 215's with the 1x18's is the ability to move them outside. We do an annual outdoor event and have always had to rent a PA for $500. The YAMAHA setup is in hope to move them outdoors and have decent coverage for the stage area, while still maintaining a decent setup indoors. I know this thinking won't make me any friends here, because you want to match the speakers to the venue, but we won't be able to fly anything outside.

The reason you wouldnt make friends here with that is because there are better options that may save you money in the long run.

For instance check the flown speakers and get them working correctly get the delay cabs timed correctly (you can do this with math and get it close) and get everything aimed close to correctly, then look at a good monitor rig that can double as your outdoors / youth or whatever you need system. You can probably have someone come do this in the same price range as a diy option.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 01:31:07 PM »

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ it can't do everything a full seat of Smaart, TEF, etc can do but it does do enough to overwhelm most amateurs and it is free.

Correct there and for a church with no budget they can start to see what needs fixing so this will help the current problem because his room should not be far off, depending on size difference, materials.

We are adding a digital delay onto the system and are waiting for some help with the maintenance people to fix and review wiring.

They have two speakers in the rear corners on 8 ohm connection with 200 to 250 feet of wire.  Trying to see if we can get the 70 v transformers and separate amp after time delay to run these correct time delivery and in the 70 v we will not loose as much on cable or frequency from the long run. 
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Brad Weber

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 03:34:06 PM »

Correct there and for a church with no budget they can start to see what needs fixing so this will help the current problem because his room should not be far off, depending on size difference, materials.
Let's be careful as whether it is REW or Smaart, SysTune, EASERA, Paxis, etc., all of those simply give you is information, they do not tell you what needs fixing or how to fix it.  It's a bit like a thermometer provides the temperature but does not say if that is warm or cold much less suggest what to do because of it.

Taking that analogy a step further, if you are hot and the thermometer says it is cold then you might question what it is saying and you really need to be able to do the same with audio and acoustical analysis systems, you need to be able to know when the information they present seems valid or not or you might end up wearing  a swimsuit in the snow.

They have two speakers in the rear corners on 8 ohm connection with 200 to 250 feet of wire.
Speakers actually in rear corners (as compared to fill speakers covering rear corners) are typically a bad idea unless they are for effects or surround sound.

Trying to see if we can get the 70 v transformers and separate amp after time delay to run these correct time delivery and in the 70 v we will not loose as much on cable or frequency from the long run.
200' to 250' is not that long a distance but what may be more of an issue is if these are at the rear facing in/forward then how do you properly delay them?  In effect their natural delay is the inverse of the natural delay from the mains up front.  This often means they are virtually impossible to effectively delay.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 08:10:15 AM »

Let's be careful as whether it is REW or Smaart, SysTune, EASERA, Paxis, etc., all of those simply give you is information, they do not tell you what needs fixing or how to fix it.  It's a bit like a thermometer provides the temperature but does not say if that is warm or cold much less suggest what to do because of it.

Taking that analogy a step further, if you are hot and the thermometer says it is cold then you might question what it is saying and you really need to be able to do the same with audio and acoustical analysis systems, you need to be able to know when the information they present seems valid or not or you might end up wearing  a swimsuit in the snow.
Speakers actually in rear corners (as compared to fill speakers covering rear corners) are typically a bad idea unless they are for effects or surround sound.
200' to 250' is not that long a distance but what may be more of an issue is if these are at the rear facing in/forward then how do you properly delay them?  In effect their natural delay is the inverse of the natural delay from the mains up front.  This often means they are virtually impossible to effectively delay.

O so true and that is why they have asked and are receiving help and direction to slowly work on correcting their problems.  The tools to document and show the changes and how it affects and improves the situation is just a tool and documentation.  It also helps them to see why a persons spoken word us not intelligible in the back of the room.  Loss of High frequencies and no single source add to the problem. 
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Re: Should I hire someone to help me with speaker setup or just go with this?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 08:10:15 AM »


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