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Author Topic: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics  (Read 7173 times)

Brian Kilpatrick

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Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« on: February 05, 2013, 11:05:49 PM »

Hey All,

I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness? For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels? Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains. The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others. Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.
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Tim Perry

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 03:12:20 AM »

Hey All,

I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness?

We don't. We mix monitors mainly so the vocalist can stay on pitch.


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For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels?

Whatever the occasion calls for with whatever means are available.

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Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains.

If you are a band you need to hear you bandmates enough to play with them. If you are just a bunch of guys on a stage it really doesn't matter.

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The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others.

This is why you rehearse.

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Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.

Nope, those are for hearing crowd noise. There is virtually no way for a musician that id part of a group on stage to know what the sound balance is to the audience without physically going out there.   
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Luke Geis

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 03:25:09 AM »

I'm wicked evil and go by this rule: " If you don't ask for it, I won't give it to you ". I gave up trying to second guess musicians years ago. This rule has worked well for me since I implemented it. I don't tell the musicians my rule ( unless I really like them ) and only give them the obvious things they need and or ask for.

My sig says a lot: " I can't understand how you can't hear yourself "..............

I go by another rule that is even more wicked: " If you can hear yourself at all, your already too loud "................

It sounds like you have a lot going on and very little number of mixes to deal with the issue. The " More Me " mix criteria is not the way to go. Because it will always be more me........ The band needs to realize that they should be able to hear themselves where they would sit in the mix. Adding volume to things may not be the answer as much as turning down what is already too loud. The drummer usually sets the pace. Work around that and remember that if you can hear yourself, stop. If you can be quieter, then by all means be quieter. If someone is too loud tell them to turn down. Vocals usually present an issue as it seems to always be more me. I usually start with each vocalist alone in their own mix. I will usually get requests for what they each want after the first few moments of a song. My goal is to keep as much out of each mix as possible. The " little bit of everything " clause scares me......... This is usually the loudest mix and there never seems to be enough of it. But the goal is to give each musician what they desire.

As a musician you should strive to only hear what you need to perform and at a level that is relative to where you would be mixed at in the majority of the songs you play. Basically going back to the " if you can hear yourself at all " saying. Once you can hear yourself and realize where your at in the mix, then your probably already where you need to be. Any louder and your just effecting everyone else's mix. Being louder than needed to hear where your at in the mix leads to the more me syndrome. Being on both sides of the stage has shown me a lot of the pitfalls many bands fall into. My experience has shown that bands usually create 90% of their own problems. It's not the sound guys fault he can't make you sound right, or can't do this, or that. This is why good bands sound good and bad bands sound bad. It starts at the source. If it's not right there, it usually won't get any better down the road. Being able to get the right mix on stage is key to a band sounding good and mixing well together. If any one thing is too loud it will create a deficiency in performance to those musicians it effects. It's a matter of working with each other to get all that figured out before a performance. If stage levels are usually really loud and it still isn't right, its a good indication that volume may be the issue. " Too much of a good thing is still too much " is another saying I have.

The short answer to your ponder is: I give the artist what they want. When things start to get out of control I ask what can be done to fix things without going louder? The answer is usually turn that ( instrument ) down. The follow up is can you hear ( directed at instrument player ) that thing ok? If the answer is yes, then it's turn it down a bit and I can add more to your monitor mix ( if available ) if needed. I then give them the " if your can hear yourself at all " saying and wait for the gruff stares when they don't find it funny. After getting the stage volume worked out, I can then get the monitors to actually help the band. Two things have to be accomplished. The band has to be happy and hear everything and I have to do it without feedback and blowing up monitors. There is no magic sauce that is done to help with dynamics. If the band cannot work together and sound right with a reference that doesn't change ( the monitors ), then not much can help them.
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David Parker

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 09:04:39 AM »

Hey All,

I am writing this as more of an experienced musician than engineer. How do you mix monitors to promote musical dynamics awareness? For instance, do you mix a group of 6+ background vocalists flat and force them to blend or do you subside to "I cant here myself or so and so" and have people and different levels? Also, as a keyboard player, how should I desire a mix, with more of me and my personal preference or more of whats coming out of the mains. The problem is in dynamic music(when there are many crescendo/decrescendos, ect), when I have a "more of me" mix, its hard to know where i TRUELY am volume wise in relation to other instruments and the lead vocal so that I can grow or come down with others. Do you mix in more ambient mics or what? Any help is appreciated.

I give the musicians and singers the mix that they want. That does not keep them from recognizing dynamics. It does allow them to hear what they need to hear. If you have only one mix the keyboard player will never be happy, unless you make that one mix suit them. "more of me" monitor mixing still allows dynamics, because the people on stage get used to that mix and make adjustments accordingly to what they hear in their world, regardless what is going on out front.
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Scott Harris

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2013, 11:33:03 AM »

I suggest that this discussion be added to a future FAQ compilation or stickied.
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David Parker

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »

let me make one simple comment about monitor mixes. Many years ago when I stepped up from 2 monitor mixes to 4, my life got a lot easier. Even though it included a LOT more equipment, it vastly increased my ability to make the band members comfortable onstage, because they could hear what they needed to hear. An ideal scenario is to have a separate mix for everyone onstage. If a band goes to in ear monitoring, a separate mix for everyone become almost mandatory. Having "more of me" in their mix in no way inhibits their ability to be dynamic.
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Luke Geis

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 05:17:46 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the ultimate way to go if at all possible. Even then the " more me " syndrome can be prohibitive. Spill over from each of the wedges can make for a garbled mess on stage. Especially if each mix is just ridiculously loud. The level must be respectful of each venue. Outdoors may not be as big a deal, but anytime wedges start to push more volume backwards than the FOH is pushing forwards, there is going to be an issue.


Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference. It can help with respectful musicians to keep levels real. Some just don't get it and ask for a level that has them crawling on top of everyone and the snowball effect starts to kick in.......More me please. This again goes back to good band vs. bad band. The good ones just get it and need very little, or just the right amount of whatever and it works. Bad bands have a mix that they are never happy with and can never get enough of whatever they want. These are the ones who ask every other song for more of something.
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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 05:40:52 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference.

Couldn't agree more.
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David Parker

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 06:04:56 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the ultimate way to go if at all possible. Even then the " more me " syndrome can be prohibitive. Spill over from each of the wedges can make for a garbled mess on stage. Especially if each mix is just ridiculously loud. The level must be respectful of each venue. Outdoors may not be as big a deal, but anytime wedges start to push more volume backwards than the FOH is pushing forwards, there is going to be an issue.


Another trick that is done is to start sound check with NO MONITORS!!!!!! Then go back and ask what each musician needs? This is a great way to get artists to see where they are with house volumes as a reference. It can help with respectful musicians to keep levels real. Some just don't get it and ask for a level that has them crawling on top of everyone and the snowball effect starts to kick in.......More me please. This again goes back to good band vs. bad band. The good ones just get it and need very little, or just the right amount of whatever and it works. Bad bands have a mix that they are never happy with and can never get enough of whatever they want. These are the ones who ask every other song for more of something.

Very good. If the band will go along with it. I worked for one band for many years, and they wanted their own mix of everything in their wedge, including kick drum. Seriously folks, with the front man playing acoustic guitar and standing right in front of the drum kit, does he really need kick snare and hi-hat in his wedge? Not at all. I'd have two 15+horn monitors on each guy, and a 2-15 drum fill, so by the time I got them happy onstage, it was a nightmare trying to get good sound in the house. When the band is paying you, you tend to put what they ask for in the wedges.
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Luke Geis

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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 08:24:29 PM »

It's sometimes hard to work with bands. When people ask what I do, I  sometimes say that I'm an overpaid adult babysitter. It's true to a degree. I find that the magic is in finding a way to get what you want by making the band think they are the ones that arrived at it. It's a psychology game basically. Sometimes you have to spell it out for the band bluntly and other times you can coax it out of them with some gentle persuasion. 

As far as who's paying me to do what? I find that honesty prevails. If a band is too loud and things are out of hand, tell them. I haven't lost a client yet from that attitude. Telling the band that a problem exists because of X reason may help open their eyes. Simple questions like, can you hear the kick and snare without them being in the monitors, can help. If the answer is yes, but I want more, can be answered with, things are loud and I need to reduce stage level, can you live without it until we get things situated? They may not be super happy, but once things are under control you can dial some back in for a smile........
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Re: Monitor Mixes for Musical Dynamics
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 08:24:29 PM »


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