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[dick rees]

Yep, I didn't mean to say proximity effect is universally undesirable but that some singers may prefer a mic without it. I think proximity effect can be an advantage for multiple singers who alternate between lead and backing.

Proximity effect can be compensated for or diminished simply by angling the mic a tad.  The diminished LF response will adequately address the PE.

Watch any old-school country western artist who's now doing casinos and County Fairs or the smaller stages at State Fair.  Watch them move the mic in and out and change angles.  They'll make a 58 "sing".

Somebody should be teaching all this stuff.  Just a good video on YouTube could work wonders as a reference.

Dick "when in doubt go old-school" Rees

[Jay Barracato]

Proximity effect can be compensated for or diminished simply by angling the mic a tad.  The diminished LF response will adequately address the PE.

Watch any old-school country western artist who's now doing casinos and County Fairs or the smaller stages at State Fair.  Watch them move the mic in and out and change angles.  They'll make a 58 "sing".

Somebody should be teaching all this stuff.  Just a good video on YouTube could work wonders as a reference.

Dick "when in doubt go old-school" Rees

And they are probably holding the mic with two fingers and the thumb as far away from the capsule as possible and supporting the cable with the other hand.

My point about my vocalist working the mic was less about the proximity effect and more about the fact he listens for how he uses the mic affects the tone.

[Bob Leonard]

Dick,
You're talking about lessons learned in a day when most of the people you're trying to teach weren't even born. Today most "youngsters" feel that if there isn't a hardware solution, then there is no solution. You can't teach a young dog old tricks. Bob "Never in doubt old school first" Leonard

[Joseph D. Macry]

Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this got peoples attention, but I need some help trying to get vocals to cut through. So I'm providing the brian johnson vocals for an ac/dc tribute band... which as I perform uses a lot of 'head voice'. So it achieves the correct vocal effect- but it's not a loud screaming voice. (though some people do perform the vocals this way). As such, during rehearsals and recording I use compression so that in the event that I do go "loud" (sing from the diaphragm) I don't overload the input.

Now we started doing live shows. Different sound guys running the boards (different setups) each time. Though I can't obviously be on-stage and listen to front of house, I don't believe the vocals cut through enough.

My guess is that the engineer sets the gain on the channel so it doesn't max out when I'm 'loud', but because alot of the vocals aren't sung loud, and maybe he isn't riding the pot, the vocal strength is lower in the mix.

I'm thinking that a 5:1 soft-knee compression (or so) is what I need on vocals to present a consistent input. I know it might be crazy, but what if I ran my mic into my compressor and had it set the way I believe it performs well and then run the output to board... I know it's unconventional, but I don't know who is running the boards at alot of these venues and until I have sound people I trust- I'm thinking of taking this into my hands... I'm thinking a dbx or focusrite compressor.

I don't expect all the comments to be kind at this point- but I need some advise.

Thanks in advance,
gene

You got a lot of good advice here, most of which I agree with. Especially "let the sound guy do it, it's his job," and "Beware of compressing vocals in the monitors."

Two points I didn't see (or just missed):
1. Discuss you vocal issue with the sound guy. See how he would deal with it, and offer your own suggestion if it doesn't sound right.
2. If you had a compressor on stage, you would also need a mic preamp to drive it.

[dick rees]

And they are probably holding the mic with two fingers and the thumb as far away from the capsule as possible and supporting the cable with the other hand.

Yup.  You peeked!!! 

[duane massey]

I'm going to disagree just little bit here. Admittedly my gig is NOT the norm, but it's what it is. We have no soundman, everything is run from stage. I have, by default, become the "rock" singer, which means I have to butcher, er, cover AC/DC, Wild Cherry, Godsmack, and  a few more tunes that I really need some "help" on. I NEED to here exactly what my voice sounds like in FOH to pull this off. I use a TC Helicon VoiceworkPlus and a DBX comp on my vocal mic, and it works quite well.

[Tim Perry]

Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this got peoples attention, but I need some help trying to get vocals to cut through. So I'm providing the brian johnson vocals for an ac/dc tribute band... which as I perform uses a lot of 'head voice'. So it achieves the correct vocal effect- but it's not a loud screaming voice. (though some people do perform the vocals this way). As such, during rehearsals and recording I use compression so that in the event that I do go "loud" (sing from the diaphragm) I don't overload the input.

Now we started doing live shows. Different sound guys running the boards (different setups) each time. Though I can't obviously be on-stage and listen to front of house, I don't believe the vocals cut through enough.

My guess is that the engineer sets the gain on the channel so it doesn't max out when I'm 'loud', but because alot of the vocals aren't sung loud, and maybe he isn't riding the pot, the vocal strength is lower in the mix.

Gene, I think you have discovered the ugly truth that some fader jockeys are completely convinced that vocals are unimportant compared to the screaming guitar, the chest pounding kick, the ear shattering snare and all the other instruments.

You can ask, plead, cajole, and threaten, but he just won't/can't get it.

Find a guy you can trust, give him a comp and an XLR Y cable.
Y 2 channels, comp an insert for FOH, CH 2 is for monitors only.

Now you have your very own BE (band engineer).

[Gene O'Callaghan]

Gene, I think you have discovered the ugly truth that some fader jockeys are completely convinced that vocals are unimportant compared to the screaming guitar, the chest pounding kick, the ear shattering snare and all the other instruments.

You can ask, plead, cajole, and threaten, but he just won't/can't get it.

Find a guy you can trust, give him a comp and an XLR Y cable.
Y 2 channels, comp an insert for FOH, CH 2 is for monitors only.

Now you have your very own BE (band engineer).

Tim,
Thanks for the advice. I didn't mention I also play guitar on a bunch of the songs as well as provide the Brian Johnson vocals on close to 35 songs when we're out. Though our drummer sings some Bon Scott on 5 additional songs... I'm not sure any ac/dc bands play 40 songs in a night- let alone 35 brian johnson songs. So between moving into the mic with a guitar strapped on and having the vocal stamina for that many songs... I was lead to believe that a compressor might help a bit. Of course I move the mic back and forth- as appropriate. I just figured if I could do something to help make the sound guys job easier- I'd give it a shot.
-gene

[dick rees]

Tim,
Thanks for the advice. I didn't mention I also play guitar on a bunch of the songs as well as provide the Brian Johnson vocals on close to 35 songs when we're out. Though our drummer sings some Bon Scott on 5 additional songs... I'm not sure any ac/dc bands play 40 songs in a night- let alone 35 brian johnson songs. So between moving into the mic with a guitar strapped on and having the vocal stamina for that many songs... I was lead to believe that a compressor might help a bit. Of course I move the mic back and forth- as appropriate. I just figured if I could do something to help make the sound guys job easier- I'd give it a shot.
-gene

Gene.....

Looks like Round 2.

Mixology isn't just making one thing louder than the rest to make it cut through.  "Unmasking" the vocals by subtracting critical vocal frequencies from the other things in the PA (guitar, keys, etc) will "open a window" for the voice to come through.  A lot of mics that get picked to "cut through" these days add a fairly hefty "presence peak" between 4.5 and 10K.

It's a matter of getting things to mesh.  If the stage volume is under control (gasp), it's easier.  But if the PA is relegated to making the vocals as loud as the on-stage amps/drums, all bets are off.

Compression will help maintain a somewhat higher average level on a channel, but won't by itself address the problem you're having.

Hope this helps.

[Gene O'Callaghan]

Gene.....

Looks like Round 2.

Mixology isn't just making one thing louder than the rest to make it cut through.  "Unmasking" the vocals by subtracting critical vocal frequencies from the other things in the PA (guitar, keys, etc) will "open a window" for the voice to come through.  A lot of mics that get picked to "cut through" these days add a fairly hefty "presence peak" between 4.5 and 10K.

It's a matter of getting things to mesh.  If the stage volume is under control (gasp), it's easier.  But if the PA is relegated to making the vocals as loud as the on-stage amps/drums, all bets are off.

Compression will help maintain a somewhat higher average level on a channel, but won't by itself address the problem you're having.

Hope this helps.

Yes it does help. There is alot of good information on this forum and in this post. We do have our stage volume under control. Our lead plays through a 50W Marshall head, rhythm and I play through 50W and 30W Egnators and the bass is a 60W. Drums are behind a shield. So for an ac/dc band we're pretty quiet. Therefore we rely on sound reinforcement. I'm starting to think, as you mentioned, it is more along the lines of finding a spot (frequency range) for the vocals to exist in the mix. I remember reading about this kind of stuff when recording and mastering albums- I never thought about it in terms of live sound.