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[Bryce Swanson]

Good Evening All,
We are in the final stages of buying our equipment for our church plant, and due to the facility we have opted to go with 2 50'' TVs.  The room is 40x40 with 120 chairs.  A few questions
Are 50'' TVs big enough?  We are thinking of doing 2, one on each side of the stage.
Which TVs are durable, and are rugged enough to withstand packing\unpacking every week and moving around in a trailer?

Any other thoughts on TVs?

Thanks,

Bryce Swanson
Innovate Church

[Jordan Wolf]

Good Evening All,
We are in the final stages of buying our equipment for our church plant, and due to the facility we have opted to go with 2 50'' TVs.  The room is 40x40 with 120 chairs.  A few questions
Are 50'' TVs big enough?  We are thinking of doing 2, one on each side of the stage.
Which TVs are durable, and are rugged enough to withstand packing\unpacking every week and moving around in a trailer?

Any other thoughts on TVs?

Thanks,

Bryce Swanson
Innovate Church

Bryce,

I set a room with two 80" widescreen LED TVs to replace the screen/projector package in a room of similar size to what you described…and I felt that they should have been larger.

See picture.  I'm about 5' 7" tall, by the way, so my arm-span is about that same distance.

[Brad Weber]

We are in the final stages of buying our equipment for our church plant, and due to the facility we have opted to go with 2 50'' TVs.  The room is 40x40 with 120 chairs.  A few questions
Are 50'' TVs big enough?

Image viewing, especially for text, is greatly a function of the image height.  A typical 16:9 format 50" flat panel display provides an image just over 2' high, which is probably good for viewing from a maximum of 12' to 20' depending on the content.  So I'll echo Jordan's comments that while a 50" display may sound like it would be big, it is likely much too small for that space.
 
What I tell people to do is go to an electronics store and stand the distance from the screens that your furthest viewer would be from your screen and think about what you plan to display on your screens.  You might be surprised how small those images look at that distance.
 
 

We are thinking of doing 2, one on each side of the stage.
Which TVs are durable, and are rugged enough to withstand packing\unpacking every week and moving around in a trailer?

Well, I'd say stick with professional models from manufacturers like LG, NEC and Samsung.  Avoid consumer models whose warranties exclude any commercial or professional use,  And get some good quality flight cases and some good quality, heavy duty stands, both of which are probably going to represent a substantial cost on their own.  And if their use is critical then you might want to purchase three or four displays so that you have a backup or two.

Any other thoughts on TVs?

What are the sources for the images and how do you plan to get them to two displays?  How high do the displays need to be in order to be viewed by everyone and how tall of a stand does that require?

[Alex Donkle]

Typical rule of thumb is to measure the distance between the screen and the furthest viewer, and then divide by 6. That number should be roughly the image height of your screen. (Or sometimes use /8 for larger content, for /4 for more detailed content), and keep no one should be "off-axis" off the screen by more than 45 degrees to either side (the letter "O" starts to look like "I" once you are too far off-axis)

[Brad Weber]

Typical rule of thumb is to measure the distance between the screen and the furthest viewer, and then divide by 6. That number should be roughly the image height of your screen. (Or sometimes use /8 for larger content, for /4 for more detailed content), and keep no one should be "off-axis" off the screen by more than 45 degrees to either side (the letter "O" starts to look like "I" once you are too far off-axis)

The image height being 1/6 the distance to the furthest viewer guideline is for typical computer graphics with 1/8 for general video viewing and 1/4 for critical viewing such as CAD, spreadsheets, etc.  However, I have found that because they are often able to work with fewer, larger characters on the screen or presenting more environmental graphics that many churches can get away with greater viewing distances.

The larger font text also helps with some of the off-axis issues you noted.

[Bob L. Wilson]

Image viewing, especially for text, is greatly a function of the image height.  A typical 16:9 format 50" flat panel display provides an image just over 2' high, which is probably good for viewing from a maximum of 12' to 20' depending on the content.  So I'll echo Jordan's comments that while a 50" display may sound like it would be big, it is likely much too small for that space.
 
What I tell people to do is go to an electronics store and stand the distance from the screens that your furthest viewer would be from your screen and think about what you plan to display on your screens.  You might be surprised how small those images look at that distance.
 
 Well, I'd say stick with professional models from manufacturers like LG, NEC and Samsung.  Avoid consumer models whose warranties exclude any commercial or professional use,  And get some good quality flight cases and some good quality, heavy duty stands, both of which are probably going to represent a substantial cost on their own.  And if their use is critical then you might want to purchase three or four displays so that you have a backup or two.
What are the sources for the images and how do you plan to get them to two displays?  How high do the displays need to be in order to be viewed by everyone and how tall of a stand does that require?

I am generally a buy the best and keep it a long time kind of guy, but not when it comes to displays. I think the best way to resolve the tension between cost and "we should upgrade" is to buy consumer displays and resell them every year, or two at the most. Displays have been getting bigger, better and cheaper at a fierce rate, so one or two sizes below the largest model will generally be an area of the price sheet that has already been heavily discounted. We have had excellent luck with Sharp products all around our campus over the last 10 years, but of course we aren't roading them.  I suspect we are about three years away from, better than current HD, 12'-15' displays at commodity prices. Projector based setups will become a thing of the past soon there after.

[Brad Weber]

I am generally a buy the best and keep it a long time kind of guy, but not when it comes to displays. I think the best way to resolve the tension between cost and "we should upgrade" is to buy consumer displays and resell them every year, or two at the most. Displays have been getting bigger, better and cheaper at a fierce rate, so one or two sizes below the largest model will generally be an area of the price sheet that has already been heavily discounted. We have had excellent luck with Sharp products all around our campus over the last 10 years, but of course we aren't roading them.  I suspect we are about three years away from, better than current HD, 12'-15' displays at commodity prices. Projector based setups will become a thing of the past soon there after.

I had a Client that thought this way until they had spent more in a year on consumer devices that had failed and were not warrantied in the application than if they had simply purchased commercial units to start with and eventually they replaced everything with commercial units.  But what was a critical factor in that application, and may be in many others, was the impact of a failure.

One aspect of that is the potential effect of any failure or problem on the intended purpose or use of the displays.  Is any failure or possible loss of use of a more critical nature?  Another factor can be how any replacement will be funded and if that funding will be readily available.  In some cases it may be easier or more practical to get greater initial funding than it is to get ongoing funding for repairs and replacement.

[Lee Douglas]

Bryce,

I set a room with two 80" widescreen LED TVs to replace the screen/projector package in a room of similar size to what you described…and I felt that they should have been larger.

See picture.  I'm about 5' 7" tall, by the way, so my arm-span is about that same distance.

I give up.  What's holding that display up??!!   

[Bob L. Wilson]

I had a Client that thought this way until they had spent more in a year on consumer devices that had failed and were not warrantied in the application than if they had simply purchased commercial units to start with and eventually they replaced everything with commercial units.  But what was a critical factor in that application, and may be in many others, was the impact of a failure.

One aspect of that is the potential effect of any failure or problem on the intended purpose or use of the displays.  Is any failure or possible loss of use of a more critical nature?  Another factor can be how any replacement will be funded and if that funding will be readily available.  In some cases it may be easier or more practical to get greater initial funding than it is to get ongoing funding for repairs and replacement.

We are talking about a display in a church not an anesthesia machine. I realize long warranties give a system integrator or contractor the easy out when there is a problem but warranty length has nothing to do with quality or reliability. A Kia is not less likely to fail or last longer than a Honda just because it has a longer warranty.

[Brad Weber]

We are talking about a display in a church not an anesthesia machine. I realize long warranties give a system integrator or contractor the easy out when there is a problem but warranty length has nothing to do with quality or reliability. A Kia is not less likely to fail or last longer than a Honda just because it has a longer warranty.

I had the impression these displays were the primary displays and not ancillary displays, thus I don't know we can assume how important they are.  However, my point was simply that the importance of the displays working or being addressed under warranty if something fails can be a factor to consider.  If you don't feel it is a relevant factor in your situation that does not mean everyone else will have the same situation or perspective.

I was also not addressing the duration of the warranty but whether one exists at all.  Some consumer product warranties expressly exclude essentially anything other than residential use, thus meaning use in church may be excluded from warranty coverage.  Some people seem to believe that it being related to a church makes it acceptable to misrepresent the use and that is a choice each person or church must make but I personally do not share or endorse that perspective.

Also related to the application is the actual use.  If the displays are used a couple of hours a day then that may be more like a typical use for which consumer products were designed.  If the displays are used 24/7 then that is probably well beyond the intended use of a consumer display and likely why such potential use may be excluded from warranty coverage.  Just another potential factor one may want to consider.

I do not understand how "long warranties give a system integrator or contractor the easy out when there is a problem".  If by "easy out" you mean things like being able to get immediate replacements rather than having to first have the display checked out by the manufacturer or potentially having the manufacturer pay for their labor rather than having to build that into their cost then that may be true but otherwise I am not sure what you mean.

[Jordan Wolf]

I give up.  What's holding that display up??!!   

It's attached to my back via a harness.












Seriously, though, it's held up with a mounting bracket, chrome steel uprights, and a large baseplate.  I just happened to be in the ideal position to block those from the picture.

[Lee Douglas]

It's attached to my back via a harness.

Seriously, though, it's held up with a mounting bracket, chrome steel uprights, and a large baseplate.  I just happened to be in the ideal position to block those from the picture.

Funny! At first I thought it was photoshopped.  Not that it's perinent to the post, but when you get time could I get a shot of the backside of that contraption?  Is that a standard available stand?  It seems like it would be wobbley and top heavy.  Thanks!

[Jordan Wolf]

Is that a standard available stand?  It seems like it would be wobbley and top heavy.  Thanks!

Stands of that type are very typical in the AV industry - Premier Mounts makes many variations…Chief makes some others.

[Bob L. Wilson]

I had the impression these displays were the primary displays and not ancillary displays, thus I don't know we can assume how important they are.  However, my point was simply that the importance of the displays working or being addressed under warranty if something fails can be a factor to consider.  If you don't feel it is a relevant factor in your situation that does not mean everyone else will have the same situation or perspective.

I was also not addressing the duration of the warranty but whether one exists at all.  Some consumer product warranties expressly exclude essentially anything other than residential use, thus meaning use in church may be excluded from warranty coverage.  Some people seem to believe that it being related to a church makes it acceptable to misrepresent the use and that is a choice each person or church must make but I personally do not share or endorse that perspective.

Also related to the application is the actual use.  If the displays are used a couple of hours a day then that may be more like a typical use for which consumer products were designed.  If the displays are used 24/7 then that is probably well beyond the intended use of a consumer display and likely why such potential use may be excluded from warranty coverage.  Just another potential factor one may want to consider.

I do not understand how "long warranties give a system integrator or contractor the easy out when there is a problem".  If by "easy out" you mean things like being able to get immediate replacements rather than having to first have the display checked out by the manufacturer or potentially having the manufacturer pay for their labor rather than having to build that into their cost then that may be true but otherwise I am not sure what you mean.

The standard Sharp one year warranty is in effect on units in commercial use. Units used in a commercial setting do not qualify for their Aquos advantage program which means no in situ service and/or a loaner. Unless we are talking about Alaska or Samoa a replacement for a consumer unit just means a drive to Best Buy. Better yet, if the same models are used throughout the space then a spare will always be on hand in case of a mission critical failure. 80" Sharps have a current street price of $2500-3000.

[Brad Weber]

The standard Sharp one year warranty is in effect on units in commercial use. Units used in a commercial setting do not qualify for their Aquos advantage program which means no in situ service and/or a loaner. Unless we are talking about Alaska or Samoa a replacement for a consumer unit just means a drive to Best Buy. Better yet, if the same models are used throughout the space then a spare will always be on hand in case of a mission critical failure. 80" Sharps have a current street price of $2500-3000.

Some manufacturers offer warranties that do not specifically exclude commercial use while others may waive that exclusion if you purchase the units through a commercial dealer.  Just another thing to check before making a purchase.

Like I said, situations vary and even if a replacement is available down the street, not all churches may have the funds always available to immediately purchase a replacement if a display fails.  In some cases that may be acceptable, in others it could be a problem.  I do recommend considering all the factors before making a decision as what makes sense in one situation may not in another.

FWIW, you can get a 55" NEC, LG, Samsung, etc. commercial public display with a 2 or 3 year warranty that includes commercial use for around $1,400 to $2,400.

[Bob L. Wilson]

Some manufacturers offer warranties that do not specifically exclude commercial use while others may waive that exclusion if you purchase the units through a commercial dealer.  Just another thing to check before making a purchase.

Like I said, situations vary and even if a replacement is available down the street, not all churches may have the funds always available to immediately purchase a replacement if a display fails.  In some cases that may be acceptable, in others it could be a problem.  I do recommend considering all the factors before making a decision as what makes sense in one situation may not in another.

FWIW, you can get a 55" NEC, LG, Samsung, etc. commercial public display with a 2 or 3 year warranty that includes commercial use for around $1,400 to $2,400.

Great, except anyone can buy a 60" LED Sharp at Best Buy for $999 and if they happen to be the kind of person who obsesses about warranty length BB will happily sell them a five year commercial use protection plan for $199.

[Lee Douglas]

Stands of that type are very typical in the AV industry - Premier Mounts makes many variations…Chief makes some others.

Hey, thanks!  I've used plenty of carts, mounts and the like from both manufacturers, but hadn't seen those before.

[Jordan Wolf]

Hey, thanks!  I've used plenty of carts, mounts and the like from both manufacturers, but hadn't seen those before.

You're welcome!  I find that leaving the mounting bracket attached to the chrome pipes makes transportation easier.  Throw the baseplate pole inserts on the edge of the monitor road case, the pipes on top, and you have a portable solution that shouldn't rattle loose unless you hit a big bump.

Watch your toes and your back!

[Arnold B. Krueger]

Good Evening All,
We are in the final stages of buying our equipment for our church plant, and due to the facility we have opted to go with 2 50'' TVs.  The room is 40x40 with 120 chairs.  A few questions
Are 50'' TVs big enough?  We are thinking of doing 2, one on each side of the stage.
Which TVs are durable, and are rugged enough to withstand packing\unpacking every week and moving around in a trailer?

Probably too small for a room that size.  We use a 60 inch screen in a room about half that size and its OK, no way too large.

What you need has a lot to do with the media you show. If you control the media, then you have more latitude. This is true for much presentation graphics and videos.  If your media runs towards very busy text slides, then you want the big picture!

As far as commercial grade TVs go, there are many differences in the duty cycle of a church's  use of a TV screen.  Our narthex TV runs about 3 hours a week which would be very light duty for a household TV given that the average person watches several hours of TV a day.  The TVs we use for sunday school classes and youth are similar. The one our preschool uses actually sees a usage cycle that is about the same as typical household use.

The issue of warranty has come up, but if a commercial grade 46 inch TV costs over $2k and a home-use model can be had for about 1/5 of that, all the home use model has to do is last a year or two and you've got your investment back.

If the TV need not be wafer-thin then DLP TV's have wonderful price/performance up to about 92 inches. At 72 inches they are almost give-aways.  They work well with normal room lighting including considerable bleed from the out of doors.

We've had infant mortality of LCD TVs and we just boxed them up for warranty replacment no questions asked.

Using multiple TVs is an option because costs go up very nonlinearly above 55-60 inches for LCDs.

As far as shipping and packing/unpacking a lot has to do with how carefully you actually do that. If your labor is in a hurry or untrained, or the equipment is not kept in a rigid padded case,  then there may not be a product that will last very long.

[ProSoundWeb Community]