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Author Topic: Power distros for entertainment like bands & concerts or stage & theatre shows  (Read 44156 times)

Greg_Cameron

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P.S. - I've done 300' of 6/4 SO cord in a pinch with no issues. But I wasn't running lights, sound only. LED cans would have been fine though I'm sure.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:52:38 PM by Greg Cameron »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Yep, that's why I wanted to step up to something like this.  But, I want to make sure my investment will cover what I want to use it for.  If I buy a Peavey distro that says it's capable of 80 amps or a Furman distro that is either 100 or 120 amps, I want to make sure I can utilize them to their fullest potential.  Otherwise, I could EASILY spend $2000 or more on cable and distros to only end up with something that "still" won't be usable.  Or worse yet, not up to code.


Thanks for the reply Tom.  I appreciate the info so far.   :)
Yep I’m really sure that a NEMA 14-50R receptacle is a 50A circuit, not a 100A circuit.  That being said, you do get “100A” out of the circuit in the form of two 50A legs.

Yes I’m sure that code requires that a NEMA 14-series receptacle is fed with 4 wires – two hots, a neutral wire, and a ground.  This is a 240v/208v supply that can be broken out into two 120v “subcircuits”, if you will; in the case of a NEMA 14-50 these are two 50A circuits, totaling up to a potential 100A load at 120 volts.  This is ALWAYS (unless illegally installed) both a 240/208v and a 120v service.  There are not multiple ways to wire a NEMA 14-50.  If someone wired it to be “120v” by attaching both hot wires to the same phase in a  breaker panel, at best you’d gain nothing if both wires were tied to the same breaker, and at worst overload the neutral wire since you’d have two “ins” and only one “out”.

The Peavey and Furman distros are practically the same thing – 80A, 100A, 120A – different ways of speaking about the same thing,  subject to some de-rating in nomenclature to meet certain product guidelines, I suppose.  The Peavey distro has 6 20A circuits, totaling “120A out” in a manner of speaking, however only “100A (if you forgive the loose definition) are even available from the 14-50 plug.  I believe the Furman doesn’t come with a cordset, so theoretically you could put a 14-60 plug on it, though these are far less common than 14-50.

Subpanels almost always oversubscribe the service entrance of a building because there’s always headroom – nothing is ever 100% loaded, so there’s ample capacity to run 6 100A panels from a 400A service.  Restricting this to 1:1 (for general building – there are times when you must have a 100% supply and possibly even greater) would raise the cost of the electrical service, and add nothing.

Re: wire length -  Feel free to strongly disagree with general practice and experience, but I promise you there are reasons for not having a 250’ piece of 4/4 wire.  Just because you’ve seen it done doesn’t make it right.  Not necessarily in order of severity, reasons not to would include: accumulated heat in densely coiled extra wire creating a fire hazard, more voltage drop than necessary when you don’t need all that wire, PITA factor of wrapping 400lbs of wire, and cost.  Having a shorter pice of wire at the distro plus an extension cord or two are a lot smarter.  Folks that have 250’ pieces of wire generally have single-conductor SC cable, which has different rules.

Ampacity over distance:  It’s general convention to have your supply wiring not exceed 3% voltage drop over the run.  Since the whole circuit is considered, that’s 500’.  3% of 120 volts is 3.6v.  For a 50A load, we’re allowed a resistance of .072 ohms.  Dividing that by 500’ means we need wire with  a resistance of .000144ohms/ft.  2ga wire is .0001563, 1ga is .000124.  You could probably get away with 2ga wire and have slightly more than 3% voltage drop, but that’s a long run.

RE: UF vs SOOW again – UF is not much smaller than SOOW.  The actual wire is the same cross-sectional area.  The insulation may be slightly different.  I also doubt the cost is much different.  Your links are for 10/3 wire, which is much cheaper than 4/4.

You don’t want 3-phase at this point.  You can use a single phase (split phase) distro from a 3-phase supply, but not easily the other way around.  Start with a 14-50 system and when you out grow it you can think about 3-phase.

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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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P.S. - I've done 300' of 6/4 SO cord in a pinch with no issues. But I wasn't running lights, sound only. LED cans would have been fine though I'm sure.
I'm sure it worked passably at less than full load, but being clear on this, 6/4 cord isn't allowed for 3 current-carrying conductors by the letter of the NEC at any distance, much less 300'. 

I'm aware that some inspectors will pass a 6/4 system at 50A, but IMO this is foolish for two reasons:

1. we're all worried about UL/ETL listing for the distro hardware; if that's a concern, then so is marginal supply cabling.

2. Skimping on feeder wire reduces rig performance.  We spend thousands of dollars on high-tech PFC and whatnot amplifiers to squeeze every last watt from our electrical supply.  Negating this by undersizing the feeder to save a few bucks is just dumb, and we only cheat ourselves.
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Greg_Cameron

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I'm sure it worked passably at less than full load, but being clear on this, 6/4 cord isn't allowed for 3 current-carrying conductors by the letter of the NEC at any distance, much less 300'. 

I'm aware that some inspectors will pass a 6/4 system at 50A, but IMO this is foolish for two reasons:

1. we're all worried about UL/ETL listing for the distro hardware; if that's a concern, then so is marginal supply cabling.

2. Skimping on feeder wire reduces rig performance.  We spend thousands of dollars on high-tech PFC and whatnot amplifiers to squeeze every last watt from our electrical supply.  Negating this by undersizing the feeder to save a few bucks is just dumb, and we only cheat ourselves.

You are correct TJ. It was in a pinch, and one time many years ago. I definitely don't recommend it. Average draw was probably under 20A so it was usable for that moment. Had lighting been involved it would have never worked.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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P.S. - I've done 300' of 6/4 SO cord in a pinch with no issues. But I wasn't running lights, sound only. LED cans would have been fine though I'm sure.

Greg, you just deleted what you previously wrote by editing your comments.  Shoot man.  If you can remember what you said, please put them back up for all to see. 

Anyway, I am familiar with the voltage calculator and if I go in and put the specs in as follows:

Source:  240V
Cable size:  4 awg (70/55A)
Load current in amperes:  60 amps
System type:  AC single phase 60 Hz (assuming that's what 240 volt single phase is.  The only other options are DC or 3 phase and those aren't it.)
Conductor type:  copper
Conductor temperature:  90C (194F)
Conduit type: No conduit  (The only other options are PVC, aluminum or steel and I guess I could use PVC as a similar conduit to the SOOW jacket but I used none to start.  I will use PVC as well and see what happens.
Select parallel runs:  single set of conductors (since I'm not considering 3 phase at this point, I'm just choosing this option.  I will select 3 phase as well and see what changes)
Length of cable:  250
------------
Estimated voltage drop:  4.1%

---*(now, I put in 60 amps as a "worst" case scenerio for the type of load I "could" be pulling at a time.  Perhaps it wouldn't even be possible and the breaker at the power source would trip before it got to this point but I wanted to put that in to see what the results would be.  According to the calculations, it's still within the limits of 5% or under.  Also, I used a higher temperature for the cable as I could assume that the cable would get hotter under the given load for the length of cable if I was to consume that much power through it.  Again, I can put it to lower specs and get better results and will post those unerneath this message)*--

If I change my specs to be ONLY 50 amps AND ONLY 75C(167F) temperature AND use PVC as a conduit, the voltage drop goes down to only 3.3% at 250 feet with 4 gauge cable.  So, it's still well within the limits. 

Changing the gauge of wire to 2 gauge instead of 4 drops the voltage drop to around 2% at 50 amps and 2.4% at 60 amps so obviously that would be a benefit but it would be negligable considering the amount of money that would be spent on cable to go from 4 gauge down to 2 gauge. 

Changing the conduit had not effect on the voltage drop (which I assumed it wouldn't unless the temps get really high and then I suppose it would change things but I am not considering temps to be that high).

By putting in 3 phase numbers into the calculator, the voltage drops were even more significant and reduced it by 1/2% or more.  So, considering my "worst case scenerio" by my first numbers I put into the calculations, having 4 gauge wire at 250' is well within limits even at 60 amps of power.  Which would virtually never be happening.  At least I'm "assuming" it can't but maybe someone can come on here and tell me if I'm wrong or not.  Well, I know that in a few cases, the amps can draw more power than that overall but that is with super duper heavy bass lines at a constant rate and we know that those tones are virtually unattainable for long periods of time in the live music or DJ music scene.  At least for "most" shows I think.

***I put in 300 feet at my same first specs and it came back with 4.9% voltage drop so even that would be acceptable according to the information I'm gathering off of the voltage calculator site.  Obviously, having only 50 amps in the specs vs. 60 is even better.***


As for running lights, I don't own old style par cans and never will.  I mainly own LED fixtures with even some moving head fixtures that are LED.  I have some moving heads with traditional arc lamps or other lamps and other lights but for the most part, my lighting is LED and DMX controlled so I don't have dimmer packs and so on to worry about.  So, the power draw for lighting is not the same as it was back in the day and that helps a lot.
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Greg_Cameron

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Greg, you just deleted what you previously wrote by editing your comments.  Shoot man.  If you can remember what you said, please put them back up for all to see. 

Ah crap, that was an accident. Sorry about that.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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Yep I’m really sure that a NEMA 14-50R receptacle is a 50A circuit, not a 100A circuit.  That being said, you do get “100A” out of the circuit in the form of two 50A legs.  Okay, so I guess I'm partially correct in my thinking and partially wrong.  I assumed that if they do provide two separate 50 amp legs that they are adding up to be 100 amps at the distro.  Right?  Which would mean that 100 amps would be available at the distro right?  One leg of the junction box would have 50 amps of 120 volts and the other would have 50 amps of 120 volts correct?  But if that is the case, why are they still rating it as a 50-amp outlet/service?  That just seems odd to me.  Again, sorry for the questions but just trying to get clerification.   And I understand that maybe this is a little more complicated than I understand but that's why I'm trying to get a handle on it. 

Yes I’m sure that code requires that a NEMA 14-series receptacle is fed with 4 wires – two hots, a neutral wire, and a ground.  Okay, I didn't know if a person was allowed to hook it up with only one hot to one side or the other (which would provide the single 120 volt 50 amp service) and not hook up the other side (at all) and then have the neutral and grounds hooked up.  In which case, there wouldn't be a 4th wire at all and ONLY the 3 wires.  This is a 240v/208v supply that can be broken out into two 120v “subcircuits”, if you will; in the case of a NEMA 14-50 these are two 50A circuits, totaling up to a potential 100A load at 120 volts.  Like I thought right?  This is ALWAYS (unless illegally installed) both a 240/208v and a 120v service.  Now see, this is where you confuse me again.  First you say that a 14-50R receptacle has to be fed with 4 wires.  In which case, would this HAVE to be 240 volt service?  If it's being fed 4 wires, where is only 120 volt service coming into play?  By saying "and" 120v service, to me, it seems like they could choose to wire it up by either using 4 wires for 240/208 OR 3 wires for only 120.  What am I missing here?  There are not multiple ways to wire a NEMA 14-50.  If someone wired it to be “120v” by attaching both hot wires to the same phase in a  breaker panel, at best you’d gain nothing if both wires were tied to the same breaker, and at worst overload the neutral wire since you’d have two “ins” and only one “out”.  I'm not referring to if someone were to wire it up this way by using 2 hots on the same connection.  I'm referring to "if" someone wired it up to use ONLY 1 hot on one connection, the ground, and then the neutral AND NOT use a 4th wire at all.  In which case, isn't this where we would get our option to have ONLY 120 volt service out of this plug?  And....in which case, if we wired our plug to be 240 with 2 hots (one on each side as you're supposed to), then in either case, we would (at minimum) be guaranteed 120 volt service at these places?  Again, am I just completely way off here?

The Peavey and Furman distros are practically the same thing – 80A, 100A, 120A – different ways of speaking about the same thing,  subject to some de-rating in nomenclature to meet certain product guidelines, I suppose.  The Peavey distro has 6 20A circuits, totaling “120A out” in a manner of speaking, however only “100A (if you forgive the loose definition) are even available from the 14-50 plug.  Right, and this probably references the fact that even though there are more plugs available than power for each plug, it IS BECAUSE the power is never used to full capacity at any one time by the equipment being attached to the plug (like you mention later on in this post).  I think I understand that.    I believe the Furman doesn’t come with a cordset, so theoretically you could put a 14-60 plug on it, though these are far less common than 14-50.  Yes, you "could" put a 14-60 plug on the Furman distros but like you said, those seem to be pretty rare for most places so what would be the point then?  Again, I suppose it would be best to have an interchangeable twist lock end so "if" you needed a different end for either wiring direct or using a 14-50 or 14-60 plug, you could simply have someone make you an end for that 14-60 plug when it was needed.  But I can't foresee that happening anytime soon since most places don't have that.

Subpanels almost always oversubscribe the service entrance of a building because there’s always headroom  Okay, I get that. – nothing is ever 100% loaded,  Okay, I get that too so there’s ample capacity to run 6 100A panels from a 400A service.  Now it makes sense when I now understand that at no time will ALL 6 separate 100 amp panels be sucking 100 amps out of eaach one at the same time.  Meaning, they will ALL be distributing the loads that will be "under" that 400 amp rating.  But, if for some odd reason they were to spike into using more than the allowed 400 amps evenly, it would simply trip the 400 amp breaker.  Correct? Restricting this to 1:1 (for general building – there are times when you must have a 100% supply and possibly even greater) would raise the cost of the electrical service, and add nothing.  Gotchya.

Re: wire length -  Feel free to strongly disagree with general practice and experience  Not trying to disagree completely Tom, just trying to get clarification.  I'm just going by the voltage calculator and want to hear your experience as well, but I promise you there are reasons for not having a 250’ piece of 4/4 wire.  Just because you’ve seen it done doesn’t make it right.  Okay.  That's kind of where I'm concerned.  Not just for me but what about other places that do use it?  I don't want to be a taddle tail but if they are using it, how can it be acceptable by code?  But again, depending on load, it probably is ok right?  In which case, as long as the load is not too much, then it would be acceptable right?  Not necessarily in order of severity, reasons not to would include: accumulated heat in densely coiled extra wire creating a fire hazard, more voltage drop than necessary  (is the voltage drop calculator incorrect with their figures?  I'm not trying to be a jerk here but am I supposed to go by that calculator or something else?  If that calculator is incorrect, then would someone tell them it is and can I get the correct information from a different site that has accurate information?  I'm simply going off of what that site stated as I am sure it is "supposed" to be accurate.  If it isn't, then tell me please.  If I'm trying to get the correct information from a site that claims to be accurate, how can I know better if I'm a novice?) when you don’t need all that wire  Now wait a sec...how do you know I won't "need all that wire?", PITA factor of wrapping 400lbs of wire  Yes, I realize the pain in the ass...I get it.  I'm not concerned about that., and cost  I agree the cost will be a lot but it may be within my budget.  I don't know yet and we'll see if I think it's worth it.  But cost isn't really the issue at this point.  At least with "some" things.  Having a shorter pice of wire at the distro plus an extension cord or two are a lot smarter.  Okay, so explain to me how having multiple pieces of "an extension cord" changes what I'm talking about overall anyway?  If I need 250' of a run, I need 250' of a run.  The length doesn't change, only the weight.  And I said that wasn't a concern.  The price doesn't change because two 100' cables and one 50' cable is going to cost more than 1 single 250' cable.  Having 2 or 3 cables in between that run doesn't seem to make sense to me if I could easily have one long cable AND NOT have to spend extra for the added expense of additional plugs and recetacles.  And what about the "potentially" added resistance that would be put into the equation by having multiple connection points.  That has to be taken into consideration too doesn't it?  Why spend extra money for added plugs and receptacles?  The cable length is still going to be the same.  Plus, if a 250' cable can work for a 50' run (which it can) why limit yourself to ONLY having a 50' cable when you need a 100' or 150' or 250' cable for more runs in between 0 to 250'?  In those cases, you have to either rent or purchase your own cable for the additional run and then we're back to what I'm talking about with the initial investment.  I don't understand where I'm actually gaining anything by having multiple cables with multiple plugs and receptacles added onto the cable. Folks that have 250’ pieces of wire generally have single-conductor SC cable, which has different rules.  I don't know what you're referring to here but please elaborate.  I'm interested.

Ampacity over distance:  It’s general convention to have your supply wiring not exceed 3% voltage drop over the run.  So the 5% rule limit is too much?  Okay.  Since the whole circuit is considered, that’s 500’.  I only need 250'.  Maybe 300' at max.  3% of 120 volts is 3.6v.  For a 50A load, we’re allowed a resistance of .072 ohms.  Dividing that by 500’ means we need wire with  a resistance of .000144ohms/ft.  2ga wire is .0001563, 1ga is .000124.  You could probably get away with 2ga wire and have slightly more than 3% voltage drop, but that’s a long run.  Again, I know the run is long.  But if it is the best option financially for the long run (more pun), then that is what I want to consider. 

RE: UF vs SOOW again – UF is not much smaller than SOOW.  The actual wire is the same cross-sectional area.  The insulation may be slightly different.  I also doubt the cost is much different.  Your links are for 10/3 wire, which is much cheaper than 4/4.  Yeah, I don't know if the 250' 10/3 UF wire I listed is good for  50 amps or not.  It says 600 volts and I had talked to someone at one time that said it "may" be "possible" but again, that is completely different than be acceptable by many codes and I don't want a show to get shut down because of that.  So, if UF won't work, then it won't work.  I just thought if it was an "option" then it would be worth considering.  Especially since the cost is about 20% of the 4/4 SOOW cable.  Or 15% of a 2/4 SOOW cable.

You don’t want 3-phase at this point.  You can use a single phase (split phase)  Huh???...I'm lost on this now.  Do you mean 2 separate 120 volt "legs" off of a 240 volt system or something else? distro from a 3-phase supply, but not easily the other way around.  So, if I have 4/5 cable for 3 phase and buy that for my distro that wouldn't be a good thing for the "potential" future use of doing 208/3 phase service?  Again, although the additional cable will cost a little more and yes, it will add more weight, if it is something that could be used in the future for 3 phase service, I would rather consider that now while I'm considering spending $1000 on cable.  If I spend $1000 on cable and need to upgrade to a different cable of 250' that allows 3 phase service, I will have to start all over and buy a 4/5 cable as opposed to a 4/4 cable to allow for the 3 phase service.  In which case, my 4/4 cable wouldn't be capable of doing 3 phase so it wouldn't be as good of an investment right?  Kind of like "headroom", better to have it than not wouldnt' it?  That way, when (or "if) I need it, it's there ready to go correct? Start with a 14-50 system and when you out grow it you can think about 3-phase.  Yeah...you're probably right.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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Ah crap, that was an accident. Sorry about that.

You're an accident (twss). 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.   :o
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Brian Larson

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Power distros for entertainment like bands & concerts or stage & theatre shows
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 02:36:14 AM »

You can't just buy 5 conductor wiring and all of a sudden have a three phase system. The 14-50 plug you're talking about only has 4 pins. The only way to do high ampacity three phase is with single conductor wire and camlocks. In this scenario you would have five individual cables (three hots, ground, neutral) with five individual camlock connectors on each end. This solution is VERY EXPENSIVE AND VERY HEAVY. Honestly it doesn't sound like you'll need this even in the future.

DO NOT MAKE A 250' LENGTH OF CABLE. YOUR EMPLOYEES/BACK WILL HATE YOU. Also, what was already said, leaving it coiled up will create an induction loop which could melt your cables and cause a fire so
even if you only need 20' for a certain gig, you'll still have to unroll the other 230'.

As for the calculator website not being accurate... The people on this site are professionals. They know more about this than you or some calculator. Listen CAREFULLY to what they're saying.


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Ray Aberle

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Now see, this is where you confuse me again.  First you say that a 14-50R receptacle has to be fed with 4 wires.  In which case, would this HAVE to be 240 volt service?  If it's being fed 4 wires, where is only 120 volt service coming into play?  By saying "and" 120v service, to me, it seems like they could choose to wire it up by either using 4 wires for 240/208 OR 3 wires for only 120.  What am I missing here?

It IS 240volt service, that has 120volt available as well. The 240volt refers to the two hots, a neutral and a ground. You can then connect any 120volt device to a panel fed by the 240 service, and it will feed from one of the hots, the neutral and the ground.

In other words, if you were to look inside a standard electrical panel (in your house, for example), you have 240volt service coming from the street (unless you are pimping and have 3Ř service at home... I'd be jealous.). That comes in as two hots and one common (neutral) line. The grounding bar on your home panel is fed from the earth ground. So, 200A/240V gives you two hots, and when you look down the panel, "every other" breaker is set to access one leg or the other. When you install a 240volt breaker, you know how it's two poles, connected together? Since it's side-by-side, the two hots it gets are automatically split between the two legs.

So, your house has 240volt coming in, but provides 120volt service to all of the branch circuits by the nature of landing the hot on one leg or the other. (Except for your 220volt appliances, range, maybe dryer, hot water heater, hot tub, heaters.)

The 50A circuit (NEMA 14-50) is rated as a 50A circuit because that's what the breaker is. Even though it's providing "100 amps" as in 50A on each leg, it's still a 50A breaker, because either leg will trip if you try to pull more than 50A.

To address one of your statements-- if someone wired the plug with just one of the hots (let's say X is connected and Y is not), when you connect YOUR range plug to the outlet, half of your system will not work, because the half of your panel/distro (in this scenario, the Y leg) that relies on the Y connection will see-- nothing. Your panel/distro NEEDS to see current on BOTH legs to not only avoid overloading the upstream breaker but also to fully utilize the connections that it provides.

As for the code adherence by others-- and your wondering why others are doing it-- well, the responsibility for proper electrical procedures and safety lies with one person: YOU. You cannot always change or dictate what others do, but you have the ultimate responsibility to make sure that every part of the production that you are involved with is carried out with the utmost professionalism and attention to safety.

What Brian mentioned about cam feeder is what was mentioned with "single conductor cables." You're looking at things like http://www.lexproducts.com/cs/entertainment_product?id=350&market=Entertainment&productLineId=17&subCategoryId=93 whereupon you have five lines running from the source (panel tie-in, camlok access points at the panel, or hardwired to a generator). That's a three-phase feed, and until you reach that point, don't worry about it. I've 200' of 1Ř #2 wire, and it's super friggin' heavy, so that's why people are warning you away from hauling around a 250' length of cable. For my 50A applications, I don't have anything longer then 100' -- partially for the voltage drop, but also partially that it's a pain in the butt to coil/uncoil even 100' at a time. I'd rather add a 50' length to a 100' length then deal with one 250' length.

By the way, "split phase" is used to mean the same as "single phase," it's referring to two legs as opposed to the one phase. "Phase" refers to the degrees of separation between the two legs-- X to Y is the same as Y to X; X to Y is different then Y to Z, which is still different then Z to X.

You asked about getting, say, 4/5 as opposed to 4/4 now-- several things here:
- Once you go to 3Ř for main feeder cable, I NEVER see it that small (#4 wire) of a cable... everything is 100A to 200A service, which requires at LEAST the #2 cable.
- You can connect a single phase distro to a 3Ř service, but you can't connect 3Ř distros to a single phase service. Same concept as before when discussing why a NEMA 14-50 plug with only one hot connect will cause trouble with your 240V distro-- you connect the 3Ř distro in and one of the legs will be absent!

Electrical sure is fun, isn't it?!? :D

I hope I answered your major questions; let me know if there's something that is still confusing!

-Ray Aberle

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Re: Power distros for entertainment like bands & concerts or stage & theatre shows
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 03:11:11 AM »


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