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Author Topic: Power distros for entertainment like bands & concerts or stage & theatre shows  (Read 44145 times)

Lonnie Eldridge

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Polyphase systems exhibit "ripple-free torque" in their transmission of power.  This is a very important attribute considering the large rotating machines (generators, motors, even hydraulic winches) involved.  In power distribution systems serving industrial and commercial areas, 3-phase is deployed for this most basic reason, historically.

From the perspective of a pro-sound provider, the question isn't so much what's the advantage for you.  Rather, it is: what's the best investment to make, knowing your gigs will take place in a mix of venues - some with 3-phase (208/120V), and some with split single phase (240V)?

For example, I chose a 3-phase RAC PAC since I know I can place all my loads on 4 breakers (leaving the remaining 2 de-energized).  Yet, I can cross rent the unit - or my entire monitor rig - to larger clients who are using 5-pin.

To interoperate with 4-pin twist, (or a 240V tie-in with tails), I use a short adapter cable (4-cond) with a 4-pin male on one end, and a 5-pin female that connects to the flanged inlet on the RAC PAC.  The "Z" light stays dark, only X & Y are lit.

A totally different approach is employed by a company nearby: they have multiple 4-pin twistlock RAC-PACs, but a 3-phase CamLok distro that powers some racks on L1/L2, some on L2/L3, some on L3/L1.  This obviates any need to re-assign loads within a rack, going from 240V venues to 208/120V shows.

Shane, thanks for the input.  I really appreciate it.  I think 3 phase is over my head at this point but just wanted to know if it was something to consider for future use.  And your mention about "some" venues that may have it (and only have that) and "some" that will have the 240 service are why I want to consider it.  I don't want to be screwed at a place.  But again, site surveys will be done so this "shouldn't" be an issue.  Also, your mention of renting a distro to someone that needs it for dual purpose use is also a reason why I am considering it.  I would like to have that option as well.  Even if it's only $50 a show or $100 for a weekend, I would rather my equipment be out there making money and getting rented than not and just sitting in the warehouse or trailer or truck.  By limiting myself to only a 240 distro without the additional wire for 3 phase, I may limit the ability to have it be rented/used in "some" cases. 

Just trying to think ahead is all. 
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Lonnie Eldridge

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Lonnie,

You, and people with far more experience often don't realize that circuit breakers open when the average load is exceeded, short peaks as much as 10 times there rating may be sustained without blowing the breaker, but voltage drop will be severe.
 
Okay.


Your amplifiers may have a 15 or 20 amp plug on them, but that in no way means they won't draw far more than that peak.
 
I know this.  They can be 50, 60, or even 80 amps in some cases.  But those are short "bursts" and from what I understand, won't trip a breaker UNLESS it's too much or too frequent.  Anyway, we could talk all night about that but I understand that an amp will pull more than it's stated 7, 10, 12, or 15 amp 1/8 power rating. 

For example, a QSC PLX 3602 (18800 watts per channel) will draw 18 amps (average) at 1/8th power pink noise loaded at 2 ohms stereo, but 63 amps full power sine wave. It would current limit in a fraction of a second at full power and the internal breaker would pop (hopefully) before a downstream 20 amp breaker, but the point is a full power peak will draw around 60 amps from that single amplifier.
 
Not to be a stickler but you've got a typo there.  It's actually "1800 watts per channel" and that's into a 2 ohm load per channel.  Yeah, that amp is pulling some serious juice.  Yikes.  But, that's what it takes to have good sound.  Good power.


That single amplifier can easily brown out (cause excessive voltage drop) 250' of 4/4, especially considering the static lighting loads on the line already dropping voltage.
 
True, but I'm sure you're not running that amp (or others you may have) at full load all the time are you?  If you were, you would be tripping breakers left and right.  And yes, other loads (not just lights) will have an effect on the "overall" load.

Nothing will blow except the sound on every kick drum beat.
The difference between brown out and stiff power can easily be a  6 dB loss in peak SPL.

Yeah, sucks but that's why we have to be knowledgeable and careful.

Get 100' and 50' sections of serious wire if you need to go 250'.
That said, gigs that you need 250' of wire to reach the power source usually tend to suck so much that a 6 dB loss in PA output will usually be the least of the problems...

That's true. 

Art

Thanks for the info Art.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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I really can't believe we have spend four pages on this thread.  We are talking about a person who is wanting to use possibly 250' of #4 or #2 cable to run a beer garden sound system.

Well, a "beer garden sound system" could be small in some people's minds.  We all may have a different idea of what "small" or "large" is.  (insert stupid penis joke here)...
 
Anyway, if we're talking about 3000 or 4000 watts and a few LED lights, then you can probably get away with some heavy gauge extension cords if there are two separate 20 amp power sources nearby.  But in a "beer garden" setting, having power close by is not always the case.  Or, if it is, it may not be on separate circuits/legs.
 
But I'm not referring to these (in my mind) "smaller" events where only 1 or 2 separate 20 amp outlets are needed.  I'm referring to something larger where we will have a good amount of sound and lighting.  So, we will need more than an outlet or two.
I know of a very respectable company that is now using #4 for thier Very expensive name brand large format line array with Very expensive subs since the four channel companion amps are so efficient.  There is absolutely no reason for pieces of cable that long.  Where I work, our building codes specifically say that the generator must not be closer than 20 feet to the tents or stages.  Therefore, we have them dropped just over 20 feet away, sometimes as much as 50 feet away at the most.  I rarely use more than 50' cable lengths.

Well, I understand that you may not use more than 50' in "most" cases but I'm considering situations where in a bar they do indeed have these stupid 14-50R receptacles 100' away (or more) and we do have to go through the kitchen and etc.  (yes, that sucks but that's life).  Or, in a basketball gym or large arena where we're doing a concert or just a DJ sound system and line of site is at least 75' to 100' from the stage area (where the amp racks would be) and the power source (which is down the hall, around a corner, and in some stupid electricians closet a mile away.  In which case, I don't want to be running cable stright across the floor for people to trip on.  Whether it's a bar, gym, or an outdoor event, I want to have the cable in THE MOST inconspicuous AND SAFE place possible. 

The OP doesn't need to get into this too much farther.  Buy a couple 50' pieces of 6/4 SOOW, get a Rac Pac and always have a generator setup by the provider for correct 120/240 Volt single phase operation.
 
It's easy to say "always have a generator setup by the provider" but you realize that this adds cost to the event right?  Also, if "I" am the provider (the host, promotor/marketer, coordinator, agent, pee-on, setup crew, and the whole 9 yards), then I have to be the one to consider this aspect too since again, it eats into costs.  I know we can rent generators but they aren't cheap either.
 
Have the provider meter the voltage and then double check their work with your own meter. (see above) Beyond that , you are not qualified based on your thread here.  (I know this.  That's why I'm trying to keep it as simple as plugging in a 14-50R receptacle / plug in.  I don't want to be worrying about cam locks or "tying in.")  Keep in mind that some people will look to the the NEC and tell you that the 6/4 SOOW is rated for 45 amps, which it is.  So don't pull more than 45 amps.  Electrical inspectors all around approve 6/4 SOOW on 50 OCPDs.  I have never met one who didn't.  You need to learn what YOUR local inspectors want.
 
Correct, and I am.  However, I can't know what every inspector wants to see but I am sure there is a fairly "standard" practice that people can shed some experience/wisdom on.  I get that the final say WILL ALWAYS BE the inspector within that state, city, community, village, region or whatever.  But I am hopeful that putting together a distro that will work with 240 volt service off of a 14-50R receptacle for "most" places won't be that hard.  Yes, I know it's 4 pages but I'm hopeful it's not just good info for me but others as well. 
 
For what it's worth,  I don't think that you could pull 50 amps with a Beer Garden P.A.  I do lots of EDM (sorry, I'm not familiar with what "EDM" stands for) shows and with a pretty sizable rig, way bigger than you are talking about I am only getting to around 55 amps.  (are you talking 55 amps total for both legs or 55 amps per leg?  Know knowing what I know (learning from you folks and other boards), it is obvious that you couldn't pull 55 amps per leg but just asking. 

If you must go into a venue that doesn't have a properly wired 50 Amp receptacle, be prepared to use extension cords.  It is really that easy and it is what we all do.  Yeah, I know and I have plenty of extension cords.  It just sucks having to do that.  Obviously, that brings up a great point that EVEN THOUGH I could have this great distro and wire my amps to work with it, I may have to change things around in certain situations.  In which case yes, I may have to go back to using some separate circuits.  Ugg....

 
Thanks for the info. 
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Lonnie Eldridge

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I'm sure I'm not the only one reading this thread but not contributing. What I like about this forum is the collective knowledge of members who know waaaaay more than I do. Sometimes reading the posts reinforces things I already knew, sometimes I learn new things. And sometimes I read the posts for the 'train wreck' aspect of guys who refuse to do things the correct way because it costs too much or who try to approach a problem from every different angle except the correct one in the name of saving money.

Robert,
I don't know if you're referring to me as a "train wreck" or not so at this point, I can only speculate about your comments.  I am hopeful that you're not intending that to be the case because I am not wanting my situation to end up like that.  THAT IS why I am asking so many questions and looking at this from ALL angles. 

It's similar to buying a car as you know.  We can all get a vehicle that gets us from point A to B but we all know that some of them will be cheaper, and some will be more.  And with each different model will come advantages and disadvantages.  But I'm not trying to "skimp" on anything just for the sake of being "cheap" by any means.  I just don't want to invest $2000 or $3000 if I could get what I need for $1000 or even $500.  I'm just being thrifty here and that's all. 

The comments about using a standard 10/3 UL listed cable are only because of my curiosity.  It in NO WAY means that that I would use it UNLESS it was acceptable.  I could assume that there is a reason why it wasn't used but I didn't know what it was.  Now I do since I've learned that.  But that's just one particular thing out of the many I've learned in the last week since posting my questions in different areas. 

And it's NOT just about power distros.  It's about amps, speakers, placement, cable size, harmonics, setup, logisitics, and so on.  Even though I've been at this for a while now, I've learned so much in the last 6 months that I feel like I'm starting over and I wish I would have known what I do now years ago.  But don't we all? 

I guess I'm "livin' and learnin'."
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Lonnie, I appreciate you trying to understand power distribution.  That being said, you're spinning on things that are just wrong, and you need to accept the facts:

- There is no way to be ahead using 5-conductor wire for your use.  It won't be reusable in some hypothetical future 3-phase world.  If you ever go 3-phase, you'll be into SC single-wire camloks.  5-phase wire won't fit in your plugs, and you can't just cut one of the wires off, since the jacket has to fit inside the plugs.

- 4/4 SOOW is 1.3" in diameter.  2/4 SOOW is 1.5" in diameter and weighs 1.7lbs/ft.

- I have no idea what calculator you're using.  Voltage drop can be calculated with Ohm's law.  As Art said, the nominal load that the NEC roles are based on doesn't take into account the instantaneous current draw of big power amps, which can be several times the nominal load.  You can choose to disregard this for wire sizing and you'll be "safe" from starting a fire and legal, but you'll pay the voltage drop penalty of the entire instantaneous load, not just the constant load, so the smaller and/or longer your feeder is, the mushier your power will be.  This has a direct impact on your system's output.

A calculation example:  100A on 100' of 6/4 has a voltage drop of 8 volts.  Assuming you start with 120, that leaves 112 volts left.  Up that to your 250' and your voltage drop is 20 volts.  100 volt brownouts are low enough to reboot digital mixers, and generally goof up everything, and that's assuming you actually have 120 volts to start with.

Moving that same wire to 250' of 4/4 and now your voltage drop is 12.5 volts.  That's still marginal, but a lot better than 6/4.

My example of 75' of 4/4 plus another 150 of 2/4 leaves your voltage drop at 7 volts, which is likely acceptable.


There are a lot of nuances here, and there is some wiggle room.  I happen to disagree with Ryan about the use of 6/4 cable.  I think even Ryan would agree that 6/4 cable at 250' isn't a good idea.

I stand by my recommendation - 75' of 4/4SOOW cable with a NEMA 14-50 plug.  Optionally add a piece of up to 150' of 2/4 SOOW cable with a NEMA 14-50 plug on one end and receptacle on the other.  If it gets much longer than this, you're better off with a generator (a good one).
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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Lonnie,  EDM stands for Electronic Dance Music.  Pretty much regarded as extreme duty cycle on your equipment.  When I say 55 amps,  that is single phase 120/240.  Therefore approximately 55 amps measured per leg.  That is with 16 2X18" subs, 8 3-way tops, Monitors, etc.  All turned up to a rediculous volume for hours on end.  I run each amp rack off of it's own circuit with 6/4 cable.  This rig uses four separate runs out of my distro to the amp racks.  I measure the current on the feeder coming into the distro.


With regards to TJ (Tom) Cornish and talking about running long 6/4 cables,  I have had to multiple runs as far as 300' before.  It isn't fun at the end of the night rolling it all back up.  I really don't recommend running more than 100' of 6/4 if you can avoid it as there will potentially be a lot more risk of voltage drop.  Generally if we are more than 100' from the power source we want the generator provider to run 2/0 or 4/0 5-Wire for us.  I do own some 5-Wire banded #2 cable and use it when needed.  I also have some 2/4 SOOW with Cam Locks and it is a complete bitch to work with.  For only being rated at 80 amps it really isn't worth owning or using.  I would rather just use 5-Wire banded (#2) and have 190 Amps rating.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Lonnie,  EDM stands for Electronic Dance Music.  Pretty much regarded as extreme duty cycle on your equipment.  When I say 55 amps,  that is single phase 120/240.  Therefore approximately 55 amps measured per leg.  That is with 16 2X18" subs, 8 3-way tops, Monitors, etc.  All turned up to a rediculous volume for hours on end.  I run each amp rack off of it's own circuit with 6/4 cable.  This rig uses four separate runs out of my distro to the amp racks.  I measure the current on the feeder coming into the distro.


With regards to TJ (Tom) Cornish and talking about running long 6/4 cables,  I have had to multiple runs as far as 300' before.  It isn't fun at the end of the night rolling it all back up.  I really don't recommend running more than 100' of 6/4 if you can avoid it as there will potentially be a lot more risk of voltage drop.  Generally if we are more than 100' from the power source we want the generator provider to run 2/0 or 4/0 5-Wire for us.  I do own some 5-Wire banded #2 cable and use it when needed.  I also have some 2/4 SOOW with Cam Locks and it is a complete bitch to work with.  For only being rated at 80 amps it really isn't worth owning or using.  I would rather just use 5-Wire banded (#2) and have 190 Amps rating.
Ryan - just curious how you're metering this - i.e. what's the response time of your meter?  I know even my Fluke 289 is a little slow and misses the tops of the peaks sometimes.
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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Ryan - just curious how you're metering this - i.e. what's the response time of your meter?  I know even my Fluke 289 is a little slow and misses the tops of the peaks sometimes.

I have several clamp multimeters from cheap $10 units to $50 units of various home depot varieties, none of which are true RMS.  They all measure approximately the same.  I could not tell you the response times, I have no idea what they or if a spec was even in the monuals for that. 

I started a thread about currect draw about a year ago after being surprized at how low the current draw was.  After starting that thread and wanting to know if my meters were accurate or not I borrowed a friends very over priced but fancy Fluke unit and it showed no appreciable difference in current draw.   

Read here
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,136370.msg1273904.html#msg1273904

I think we all expect our gear to pull way more current than it actually does.  Modern amplifiers are very efficient and sip electricity rather than gulping it.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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Lonnie, I appreciate you trying to understand power distribution.  That being said, you're spinning on things that are just wrong, and you need to accept the facts:
 
Tom, I understand when I first posed the many questions, there was a lot I had no idea about.  But since then, many people have been kind enough to inform me of some things.  (you're on of them).  And in that time, I've come to understand a lot of things.  However, I'm not claiming to know it all by any strethc of the imagination. 

But if I am indeed wrong about something, can you please kindly point out where, why or how?  To simply say that I am "spinning on things that are just wrong" is a fairly blunt statement that (to me) implies that I am wrong about many things.  Maybe you only mean one thing.  Or maybe it's two or three.  But whatever it is, what is it?  I thought I had a pretty good understanding of things at this point.  (for the most part).  However, if people are informing me that certain gauge wire should be acceptable and certain length runs should also be and that the distro can be built to accept either 240 volt single phase or 208 volt 3 phase service (and also 120 at the same time obviously) then what information is incorrect? 

I'm not saying that to be sarcastic but explain exactly how I'm "spinning my wheels" here.

- There is no way to be ahead using 5-conductor wire for your use.  It won't be reusable in some hypothetical future 3-phase world.  (okay, I'm reading and trying to understand) If you ever go 3-phase, you'll be into SC single-wire camloks.  (well, if camloks are mandatory then yes, I'm not wanting to go that route at this point)  5-phase wire won't fit in your plugs, and you can't just cut one of the wires off, since the jacket has to fit inside the plugs.  Okay

- 4/4 SOOW is 1.3" in diameter.  2/4 SOOW is 1.5" in diameter and weighs 1.7lbs/ft.
 
I understand that different manufacturers "may" be a little different in their overall dimensions for wire thickness and overall jacket size but here is where I got my information.  If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see the sizes for 2/4 and 4/4. 
 
According to their sizes, 2/4 has an outside diameter thickness of 1.170 inches.  1.5 would be 1 1/2 inches and 1.250 would be 1 1/4" so their figure is just under 1 1/4 inches according to their specs. 
 
4/4 is 1.010 on their site so it is essentially 1" around.
 
I'm not pointing this out to argue in any way at all.  That would gain me nothing.  I'm simply stating that this is where I got one figure.  Of course many different companies could have different figures.  Also, I don't know if this is for 50', 100' or 200' or 400' increments.  Perhaps for long runs the outside diameter is more.  But the specs don't say whether it is for a certain distance or not so I don't know.
 
Here is the link:   http://www.awcwire.com/ProductSpec.aspx?id=SOOW-Cable-8to2-AWG
 

- I have no idea what calculator you're using.
I'm sure it's the same one that a lot of people use.  I saw it quite a while ago but it was also the same one that has been recommended by a few different people on different forums and groups.  It's this one here:
http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm
 
Voltage drop can be calculated with Ohm's law.  As Art said, the nominal load that the NEC roles are based on doesn't take into account the instantaneous current draw of big power amps, which can be several times the nominal load.  (I understand this and also know that I have to take this into consideration.  That is why I am trying to find out what the "safe" area is for running equipment off of a distro.  If it is 40 amps per side, then that's that.  If it's 49 amps per side, then that's that.  If it's 49 1/2 amps per side and once you hit 50 amps per side you're tripping breakers, then that's that too.  But I understand that it's 50 amps per side *HOWEVER*, there are these "instantaneous bursts" that we have to consider.  Which means we can't be pushing our stuff to full blast as we may "want" to.  Again, this is knowledge and/or experience.  Or both.  I'm sure there's some great math involved too but the bottom line is, know what the limits are and do NOT go above them. 
 
That's what I'm trying to understand to be safe and within codes.
 
You can choose to disregard this for wire sizing (not trying to do that at all.  I want to be safe) and you'll be "safe" from starting a fire and legal, but you'll pay the voltage drop penalty of the entire instantaneous load, not just the constant load, so the smaller and/or longer your feeder is, the mushier your power will be.
 
Again, I understand which is why I am trying to get as accurate of info as I can.  Thanks.
 
This has a direct impact on your system's output.  (very true)

A calculation example:  100A on 100' of 6/4 has a voltage drop of 8 volts.  Assuming you start with 120, that leaves 112 volts left.  Up that to your 250' and your voltage drop is 20 volts.  100 volt brownouts are low enough to reboot digital mixers, and generally goof up everything, and that's assuming you actually have 120 volts to start with.  (yes, and sucking that much power well....sucks.  Literally and figuratively.  No, I don't want to be using too much power to get the performance I want AND risk it being unsafe or not up to code.  I understand that more seasoned professionals with a lot more experience than me can determine how much of a load they will be pulling based on meters, test equipment, mult-meters, and probably a lot of experience.  I'm not trying to get to that point and want to do things as best I can.  And within budget too.)

Moving that same wire to 250' of 4/4 and now your voltage drop is 12.5 volts.  That's still marginal, but a lot better than 6/4.  (agreed it's a lot.  I'm only going off of the voltage calculator at this point.  I haven't went and done any other math for things yet.  If there is a better way to figure, I would rather do that so I will either have to look back through the many pages of notes or go online and do some more research.  That's why I'm here.)

My example of 75' of 4/4 plus another 150 of 2/4 leaves your voltage drop at 7 volts, which is likely acceptable.  (And that may well be the best option.  I don't know at this point.  Still trying to get info.)


There are a lot of nuances here, and there is some wiggle room.  I happen to disagree with Ryan about the use of 6/4 cable.  I think even Ryan would agree that 6/4 cable at 250' isn't a good idea.
 
Well, I'll assume that Ryan knows what he's doing in "his" situations and maybe under "his" conditions, 6/4 is acceptable.  Or maybe he is giving a recommendation based on facts and figures from previous engineering and so forth.  I am hopeful it is from research and the engineering but I don't know.  Going off of the simple calculator I used, although 6/4 "probably" would be sufficient and safe AND still pass codes, I can't imagine 6/4 being good for a 250' run according to the small amount of research I've done.  But if I'm incorrect, please let me know.  I'm all for saving money if it is acceptable to do so. 
 
And we all know that 6/4 cable compared to 4/4 cable would be around a 30% difference or more.  That's HUGE when we're talking about 250' or 300'.


I stand by my recommendation - 75' of 4/4SOOW cable with a NEMA 14-50 plug.  Optionally add a piece of up to 150' of 2/4 SOOW cable with a NEMA 14-50 plug on one end and receptacle on the other.  If it gets much longer than this, you're better off with a generator (a good one).  (you may be right.  More than likely, I will end up with either 75' or 100' off the distro and a 150' extension (main feeder) cable.  But I'm concerned about how that will be accepted for codes by having that additional "link" in the chain with the added outlets in the middle. 

Again, thanks for the input.
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Lonnie Eldridge

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Lonnie,  EDM stands for Electronic Dance Music. 
 
Ahh...gotchya.  I guess I'm used to the terms:  house, trance, techno, dubstep, and so on.  Although I can do it, that type of music is definately NOT my background and I rarely every get requests for it at my shows.  Of course, we have to be ready for those songs when doing a larger dance show though.
 
Pretty much regarded as extreme duty cycle on your equipment.  When I say 55 amps,  that is single phase 120/240.  Therefore approximately 55 amps measured per leg.  That is with 16 2X18" subs, 8 3-way tops, Monitors, etc.  All turned up to a rediculous volume for hours on end.  I run each amp rack off of it's own circuit with 6/4 cable.  This rig uses four separate runs out of my distro to the amp racks.  I measure the current on the feeder coming into the distro.

And may I ask what size wire you're using for your distro to branch out 4 ways to your amp racks?  Obviously it's not 6/4 cable right?  Nice setup btw.  I couldn't imagine listening to that for hours on end though.  I'll take my ears thanks.

With regards to TJ (Tom) Cornish and talking about running long 6/4 cables,  I have had to multiple runs as far as 300' before.  It isn't fun at the end of the night rolling it all back up.  I really don't recommend running more than 100' of 6/4 if you can avoid it as there will potentially be a lot more risk of voltage drop.  (that seems to be the consensus from here and other forums/groups so yeah...that is a huge concern and why I'm wanting to not "skimp" on the cable.)  Generally if we are more than 100' from the power source we want the generator provider to run 2/0 or 4/0 5-Wire for us.  (okay.  So let me ask you a question even though I know it will vary based on size and location and so on but.....what size generator do you typically get in these situations and what do they "typically" charge you to drop them off and set them up for you for a day rate or weekend rate?  Considering that they don't allow you to come get them and set them up yourself and drop the cables yourself (as you said they do it), what do they "typically" rent for in your area?  I do own some 5-Wire banded #2 cable and use it when needed.  I also have some 2/4 SOOW with Cam Locks and it is a complete bitch to work with.  For only being rated at 80 amps it really isn't worth owning or using.  I would rather just use 5-Wire banded (#2) and have 190 Amps rating.  And now we're talking back into the future of things with preparation for the future.  Yeah, I am not worried about anything "that" big yet.  But I agree, in the end, having 2/4 cable may just not be worth it for the amount of shows I'll be doing for a little while.  Again, I have to sit down and figure that out.

Thanks for the info.
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