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[Lonnie Eldridge]

The alternative is to have separate distro systems. one for sound and one for lighting. The problem there is that it is rare to find venues of the type and size mentioned by Lonnie that have more than one 240 outlet available. But having separate distros for each system is the way to go IMHO.
BTW: We have had several distro systems built for us by qualified electricians who are familiar with the entertainment industry. It can certainly be done. However it doesn't save you much money and they tend to be much larger than the rack mount one such as the Peavey.
I have had good results with the Furman rack mount power distros too. The run in the $550 to $600 range depending on where you buy them.  http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=ACD-100

Rob, I agree that having two separate distros would be "ideal" but the reality of the situation is:  "most" places aren't going to have more than 1 single 14-50R receptacle to plug into.  Well, at least not smaller places like bars or small gyms and so on.  In the places that do have more than one receptacle, then we could consider renting one that could take care of our needs for the evening. 
 
 
Keep in mind, even though you may not know, I'm not just going to go into these places without asking at least a few questions first.  As I read on some other posts about distros, one gentleman no longer uses a distro because it got too confusing when he was trying to get "accurate" information from the bar owners or venues.  When he would ask if they had a 50 amp outlet, they may have said yes when really they didn't know and actually didn't have one.  Or, what they did have wasn't hooked up properly (like Tom mentioned) to begin with.  So, the 50 amp plug was renderred useless anyway.  So, he decided to take a different approach and use regular 20 amp wall outlets on separate breakers.  As a result, he's said he's had great success with running shows on 3, 4 or maybe 5 outlets.  For him, that's great.  And if that's what's needed to do a show, then that's what you have to do.  I'm just looking for a different solution. 
 
I wouldn't expect to do an event at a place without either doing a site survey FIRST (I try to do those anytime I can or money for travel allows) OR....asking some "detailed" questions on the phone or better yet, getting the bar or venue owner/manager to whip out their $600 Iphone and snap a picture of their power area.  And...get them to send a pic of the 50 amp plug in.  But even that won't guarantee great power so I would still have to be prepared but I would say that more times than not, if a place has had other entertainment in it and they've got a 50 amp plug and it's been used by that same entertainment over and over, it's probably acceptable to use for us.
 
But fortunately, that is why communication is key and "pre-planning" for events.  Which is why I'm at the stage (pun intended) of where I'm at now.  I want to have a better solution for power in "most" situations where we're doing larger shows.  The shows that still only require 2 or 3 wall outlets may not need a distro.  But when we want to step it up and have more, well, this would be it.
 
And yes, I've seen the Furman distros and I am considering them.  I'm also looking at some others as well.  There are many options.  But whether I have a qualified electrician build one or purchase one, it still only takes care of only one issue.  We still have to figure out cable length and size and proper hookups for most places. 
 
And as others have mentioned on here (which is a great point), if a qualified electrician builds one for us, more than likely, it won't be UL certified as a "whole" unit.  As such, I don't know if insurance would cover it in the event tha something happens and it is caused by the "homeade" distro.  In which case, I wouldn't be gaining anything then so it may be a wash anyway.

[Shane Ervin]

Anyone care to chime in on the topic of bonding the neutral to ground at only point?

I was just on a gig where the PA Company's distro was placed in a situation where it was effectively a sub-panel, to a Show distro (upstream from this one).  Trouble was: the PA Co's panel had its neutral bonded to its ground, internally, reportedly.

Solution(s) = ?

A Motion Labs RAC PAC rack-mountable distro, for instance, will meter
- open circuit between
     chassis and the
     Neutral pin of twistlock

But
- a bond (low impedance connection) between
    chassis and the
    Ground Pin of twistlock

Reason for this practice would be a nice lead-in to a discussion on this very interesting topic with things like harmonic currents, k factor, Magnetic fields, hum... as well as some basic rules and guidelines to live by.  (e.g., single-bonded Neutral, avoid double-bonding).

At first glance, and for such a seemingly bland sub-topic of hydro power, this gets quite involved, but it's time well spent.  Careful planning can make for a safe, low hum deployment on each gig.

[Lonnie Eldridge]

The text in bold is bullshit from a electrical engineering standpoint.  All the hot phase legs share a neutral and ground, and THAT is where you get your harmonic contamination.  Putting all of one type of load will likely insure that you have a very unbalanced loading situation that may exacerbate the neutral issue, not make it better.

We share power with lights all the time.  The relative noise levels are dependent on how well the dimmers are filtered and how many audio devices have the "pin 1 problem".  With ETC, Strand or Leprecon dimmers, we have zero noise.

At our new arena, each side of the upstage area has multiple service disconnects, but there is only one transformer serving each side.  To this day, I get road show guys that see separate switches and assume each has its own transformer... they don't, but for some reason the PA is quiet even though it shares the same 3 phase legs, neutral and ground with lighting, video, and automation.

As for building distros, in theory any competent industrial electrician can do it.  The reality is that either our insurance, or the client's insurance or the venue may require only *U.L. listed* distros, and that means the whole assembly, not just the components must be UL listed.  When it comes to purchasing distros, one will find most budget distros do not bear the UL sticker.

You know, I've had pretty fortunate luck with ground issues so far.  Sure, I haven't set up huge events yet but the larger ones I have done, I've been lucky enough to not have too many issues with a hum or buzz.  I don't know if that is due to having newer equipment or the places I have been at have had newer power supplies but my "hums or buzzes" have been pretty minimal.

And when I do have an issue, it has "usually" been because I've got a bad XLR cable or some other bad cable running along side something.  In some cases, it has been because I have simply plugged my laptop into a different plug in than I should have.  In other cases, it may have been because I was on the same circuit (breaker) in a bar where a neon was on or some other equipment was on behind the bar.  You know those damn ice machines or coolers. 

I've had a few situations where I couldn't get it figured out but not many.  It's usually a wiring issue on my part or picked the wrong outlet. 

In any case though, the hum & buzz has never been bad enough that it was noticable once I brought the slider up to 2% or 3%.  I which case, it is never even noticed by anyone other than me during sound check since once you get people into a building and are talking or getting ready to dance, they can't hear crap anyway.  If I've ever had an issue THAT bad, I've been able to figure out it's a simple bad wire. 

[Greg_Cameron]

Using multiple outlets/circuits at unknown venues is often a recipe for ground loop problems and sometimes shock. You're on the right track looking for distro so long as you can actually plug it in. As far as distros go, I have no love for the Furman units and don't recommend them from prior experience with both the product and support. I will however recommend Motion Labs. They are industry standard and will pass inspection pretty much anywhere. They can build them any way you want or you can go with one of their "off the shelf" configurations. Prices are very reasonable as well.

[Lonnie Eldridge]

Anyone care to chime in on the topic of bonding the neutral to ground at only point?

I was just on a gig where the PA Company's distro was placed in a situation where it was effectively a sub-panel, to a Show distro (upstream from this one).  Trouble was: the PA Co's panel had its neutral bonded to its ground, internally, reportedly.

Solution(s) = ?

A Motion Labs RAC PAC rack-mountable distro, for instance, will meter
- open circuit between
     chassis and the
     Neutral pin of twistlock

But
- a bond (low impedance connection) between
    chassis and the
    Ground Pin of twistlock

Reason for this practice would be a nice lead-in to a discussion on this very interesting topic with things like harmonic currents, k factor, Magnetic fields, hum... as well as some basic rules and guidelines to live by.  (e.g., single-bonded Neutral, avoid double-bonding).

At first glance, and for such a seemingly bland sub-topic of hydro power, this gets quite involved, but it's time well spent.  Careful planning can make for a safe, low hum deployment on each gig.

Shane, I'm all for this discussion but I would be taking notes as if you read my previous response, when it comes to grounds or lackthereof and/or their relation to "hums, buzzes & noises" (HBN if we want to simplify a term.....I'll patent it if need be... ), I've been pretty fortunate that "most" of my issues have been figured out by moving a wire or plugging into different outlets.  I haven't had to deal with a large scale HBN isse though. 
 
That's not to say I'm not interested in it but just don't know.   Maybe it's not as noticable on a smaller scale with less power available and being sent to mains and stage monitors.  I don't know.  I've heard larger situations and seen other stage hands/sound guys running around trying to figure out where their HBN is coming from and feel for them but I've been fortunate I guess. 
 
But with the exception of simply using our equipment as intended and plugging them into the correct outlets with the correct plugs on them (not breaking off the ground plug), what can "most" people do in a matter of minutes?  If you're talking about an issue that is coming from the venue itself such as a bad ground from the incoming power supply from either the junction box or worse yet, further back (previous) to the box such as the incoming power line, then what can be done?   We can't fix the venue's power supply issues in a matter of minutes with a show ready to start can we?   

[Greg_Cameron]

Anyone care to chime in on the topic of bonding the neutral to ground at only point?

Sure. Bonding at the service entrance or a newly derived service past the service entrance (aka transformer) are the only time you are allowed to bond neutral to ground. Any other place downstream is a code violation.

[Scott Wagner]

Using multiple outlets/circuits at unknown venues is often a recipe for ground loop problems and sometimes shock. You're on the right track looking for distro so long as you can actually plug it in. As far as distros go, I have no love for the Furman units and don't recommend them from prior experience with both the product and support. I will however recommend Motion Labs. They are industry standard and will pass inspection pretty much anywhere. They can build them any way you want or you can go with one of their "off the shelf" configurations. Prices are very reasonable as well.

+1

[Lonnie Eldridge]

Using multiple outlets/circuits at unknown venues is often a recipe for ground loop problems and sometimes shock. You're on the right track looking for distro so long as you can actually plug it in. As far as distros go, I have no love for the Furman units and don't recommend them from prior experience with both the product and support. I will however recommend Motion Labs. They are industry standard and will pass inspection pretty much anywhere. They can build them any way you want or you can go with one of their "off the shelf" configurations. Prices are very reasonable as well.

Greg, (and to others interested in distros)
Due to the previous research on this site and other sites, I have stumbled across many different distros and they each have a purpose.  Some are great but to be honest, many are simply more than I need and probably more importantly (for now anyway), out of my budget.  I want to get the right equipment but I can't afford a $1000 or $2000 (or more) distro when it is WAY more than I will need. 

Tim  (from other distro posts I read in doing my research here) had mentioned one company that may be what I'm looking for.  I'll post the link and if you look at the first distro in the link, that little distro may be all I'll need for now.  At least for 90% of my shows anyway.  Here it is:

http://www.ampshop.com/distro.html

For what I am looking to do, I would like to have one distro in a rack that would carry my 250' of feeder cable and power the first set of amps.  In which case, I would probably have the distro mounted in the same rack as the amps.  Yes, this would be a big rack but keep in mind, this would be for a larger show and a larger show isn't going to be done out of my little Ford Escort wagon (although I've done some nice little events out of that thing).  If I'm doing a larger show with something like dual 18's and 1 or 2 dual 15's (per side) 6 big speaker cabs aren't going to fit into an Escort Wagon.  Or my Chrylser minivan for that matter.  Although I can fit a lot in there, I can't fit 6 big speaker cabs AND amp racks in there.  Even if they did NOT have a power distro with 250' of feeder cable in it, they still aren't fitting. 

So......in these cases, I'm going to have a bigger vechicle like my trailer or a cube van/truck or bigger truck.  In which case, an amp rack that would have 2 or 3 good sized amps in it AND the distro with a case to hold 250' worth of feeder cable wouldn't take up much room. 

From there, for the other rack with amps, I would probably use the same type of power distro as in the top picture but without both 14-50R femal receptacles in it and only have the feeder cable going to the first power distro in the first rack.  Maybe I would though who knows?

The way I envision having this available would be to do two racks.  One rack for each side (or setup configuration depending on how I decide to set up events).   If I'm doing a smaller show with only dual 18 cabs and one dual 15 per side, then one rack would be all I need for the power required.  In which case, I would use the first rack with the big rack with 250' of power cable.  Even with this show, I'm still thinking I will need a good power supply that will require the use of this distro. 

But if I'm doing an even larger show where I'm doing 4 dual 18 cabs total (configuration dependent on what would be best for setup) and  2 dual 15's (or maybe 3 dual 15's per side) then I would use the additional amp rack as needed.

Of course stage monitors are included in both situations and that will be figured into the first amp rack.   

[Greg_Cameron]

Greg, (and to others interested in distros)
Due to the previous research on this site and other sites, I have stumbled across many different distros and they each have a purpose.  Some are great but to be honest, many are simply more than I need and probably more importantly (for now anyway), out of my budget.  I want to get the right equipment but I can't afford a $1000 or $2000 (or more) distro when it is WAY more than I will need. 

Lonnie. I purchased a Motion Labs 3RU Rack Pac several years back with the Hubble "California" 50A 120/240 inlet/pass-through & 4 30A twistlock 120/240 L14-30 circuits to distribute to smaller 2RU Rac Pacs in my amp racks and stage distribution. I paid less than $600 at the time. This is probably the one you want, same basic design but with regular 20A "Edisons" on the back:

http://www.motionlabs.com/c-83-50a-125250v-in-thru.aspx

Motion Labs products are ETL listed. I don't believe Amp Shop distros are listed by any agencies such as ETL or UL. That's not to say they're unsafe or not well made. But in some locales, inspectors want to see that on power distribution gear so they know it's been deemed safe by experts.

[Lonnie Eldridge]

Lonnie. I purchased a Motion Labs 3RU Rack Pac several years back with the Hubble "California" 50A 120/240 inlet/pass-through & 4 30A twistlock 120/240 L14-30 circuits to distribute to smaller 2RU Rac Pacs in my amp racks and stage distribution. I paid less than $600 at the time. This is probably the one you want, same basic design but with regular 20A "Edisons" on the back:

http://www.motionlabs.com/c-83-50a-125250v-in-thru.aspx

Motion Labs products are ETL listed. I don't believe Amp Shop distros are listed by any agencies such as ETL or UL. That's not to say they're unsafe or not well made. But in some locales, inspectors want to see that on power distribution gear so they know it's been deemed safe by experts.

Greg, that is a pretty decent looking little unit.  Probably darn close to what I want. 

Anyway, I'll keep many options open and your point about whether or not they are ETL or UL listed or acceptable by code is a big thing to consider here.  Obviously that is what I want to make sure is going to be ok for my setups. 

Now, can anyone verify the length of 250' run being ok with either 4/4 or 2/4 SOOW cable? 

And while I'm on the subject, would it make more sense to have the cable be 4/5 or 2/5 so I could have it wired for 3 phase or not?  What is different at the power distro when needing to do 3 phase?  Are the components still built the same but when running into a 3 phase situation you have to change some wires around or is it a completely different junction box altogether?  I've read that the components are the same but you need to change the wiring (hence the additional wire for 3 phase vs. single phase).  I'm not too familiar with 3 phase nor understand it very well at all but I read on another distro post during my search on  here that someone ran into an issue when running 240 from a generator and when they switched to 208 3-phase, the issues went away. 

Can someone explain to me the advantages or disadvantages of 3 phase vs. 240 in simple terms? 

Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm hopeful that you'll be kind enough to offer your wisdom.  I think I've got a "fairly decent" handle on what I need to have done or what needs to be accomplished but just need to make sure. 

[ProSoundWeb Community]