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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 12108 times)

Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2013, 06:10:47 am »

So do you have any peq setting applied and if so what are they for each output.

What abt the side speakers volume knobs?  Also what are all the settings for the side speakers as there are a few different buttons on the back of them I believe.

Interesting way of doing the LCR but it seems under control.

When you say your mix is 92-96dBA.  That is at the sound desk?

The 85-90dba .... Is that the stage noise at the sound deck or the SPL on stage (lead vocal location) while FOH is at normal levels?

Very interesting regarding bass in the side isles?  Is the bass louder or the highs softer?

Do you have access to a sound level meter?

Sorry abt all the questions but it is really the only way I can get a feel of the room tens of thousands of miles away.

Regarding Mr Rees comment, some time it feels like pulling teeth but I just always remember that everyone had to start with nothing.

The Roland M-400 has 4 internal 31-band GEQs that can be switched to 8-band PEQs. I have one 8 band PEQ assigned to each main out.

The sub has an individual volume knob. It is currently set at "noon". I chose that setting after listening to music through the system and turning it up until it sounded "right".

The M-400 sort of "fakes" an LCR setup by using up one of the AUXes, but treating that AUX as a third main out. Each input channel has a percentage to which it is sent to the center channel, from 0 to 100%. I have all of the instruments set to 0% (actually the center send is just turned off for them) and the vocals at 60%, so they're 40% in the L/R main out channels. See picture below:



My mixes average between 92dBA and 96dBA, with maximum peaks at 98dBA.

The drum kit can hit 89dB all on its own if the drummer isn't giving an honest effort to play softly, I'd say we average about 85-90dBA of stage noise.

I've never noticed much of an issue when listening to professionally mastered tracks. The differences throughout the room are negligible, although the bass is stronger on the outer aisles of the seating area than in the middle.

This comment I don't understand. I've been more than willing to give information, assuming I have the information. A lot of stuff I just don't know. In the past few months I've learned quite a bit just about my church's audio system and the equipment I have. A few months back I did an inventory of all of our equipment, so now I finally know, for instance, what brand and model of kick drum mic we have.

I can't give dimensions for our room because I don't have them. We apparently don't have blue prints or floor plans for the building so if we wanted to know the dimensions we'd have to actually measure the room, and I don't have a tape measure that goes beyond
I also have no idea what model our center speakers are. I haven't gotten the chance to get a ladder out and get a good luck at them

Most of the audio equipment we own and a lot of the methods we use have been in place since long before I joined the sound team.

But anyway, if anyone needs more info I'm happy to give it, provided I have it.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2013, 11:45:21 am »

So do you have any peq setting applied and if so what are they for each output.

What abt the side speakers volume knobs?  Also what are all the settings for the side speakers as there are a few different buttons on the back of them I believe.

Interesting way of doing the LCR but it seems under control.

When you say your mix is 92-96dBA.  That is at the sound desk?

The 85-90dba .... Is that the stage noise at the sound deck or the SPL on stage (lead vocal location) while FOH is at normal levels?

Very interesting regarding bass in the side isles?  Is the bass louder or the highs softer?

Do you have access to a sound level meter?

Sorry abt all the questions but it is really the only way I can get a feel of the room tens of thousands of miles away.

Regarding Mr Rees comment, some time it feels like pulling teeth but I just always remember that everyone had to start with nothing.

Right now I'm just using a HPF on the PEQs at 45Hz. Otherwise the EQ is flat.

The JBLs side speakers' volume knobs are currently at different settings, due to an issue with one of the subwoofer's inputs. You see the JBLs are being fed signal from the 100Hz low-cut outputs on the back of the subwoofer, and the subwoofer is receiving the main L/R outputs from the board. One of the XLR inputs on the back of the sub has been damaged (almost looks like someone hit it with a hammer), and that channel is much quieter than the other one. So I'm compensating for that with the level knobs on the JBLs. Normally I would be setting the volume knob in the lower part of the "+4dB" range near 12 o'clock.

This weekend during rehearsal I'm going to try running the system in mono, sending a mono main out signal to the one fully working channel on the sub, then feeding one JBL from the cooresponding 100Hz low-cut output, and then running the other JBL off of the output from the first JBL.

Each JBL has an EQ button which is set to "boost" when depressed. It is currently set to the "flat" position on both speakers. The input button is set to "line" as opposed to "mic". Again, on both speakers.

I use a radio shack SPL meter to get my dBA measurements and all measurements are made at the desk.

As far as bass volume throughout the room the bass is noticeably stronger on the outer aisles. You can feel it in your feet as you walk from the middle of the room out to either side.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 11:48:19 am by Jason Lucas »
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Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2013, 09:55:58 pm »

What sends to foldbacks are you running and what's their setup (ie. routing, amps, eq, speakers)?

What vocal microphones are you using?

Pls upload a photo standing at the back of the stage looking out over the seating so I can see where the sound is going?

This weekend can you get some sound levels around the place (ie. At lead vocal location facing the lead vocal foldback wedge, right behind the drummer seat, front seats ctr (Pastors Seat), front seats left [ie. in front of side speakers], middle of seating center, rear of seating center) while your running a normal levels at the sound desk (ie. 94dBA).

Are the sound levels you've give for a slow speed and A weighting?

In the future I'm going to be chasing a bit of a plan with some dimensions of the room (including stage dimensions, seating areas, speaker locations, ceiling heights [at the lower edges at least so then I can calculate the apex], sound booth location).  I know you only have a 40' tap so you might have get creative and place something (ie. a pen) on the floor and move the tape along and add up the pieces.

Good to see those EQ buttons at the back are on flat though.

What's the model of your SPL meter?

You said that you can feel the bass in you feet when you move to the sides.  What's the floor made of? (ie. concrete with carpet or timber off the ground/with rooms under)

There's a lot to this sound thing isn't there....

Just to clarify the issues that we are trying to solve:
1. Vocals in front center seating are hard to hear.
2. Vocal mics feedback through the sub with a HPF less than 400Hz or so.
3. ???? Anything else I've particularly missed?



Right now I'm just using a HPF on the PEQs at 45Hz. Otherwise the EQ is flat.

The JBLs side speakers' volume knobs are currently at different settings, due to an issue with one of the subwoofer's inputs. You see the JBLs are being fed signal from the 100Hz low-cut outputs on the back of the subwoofer, and the subwoofer is receiving the main L/R outputs from the board. One of the XLR inputs on the back of the sub has been damaged (almost looks like someone hit it with a hammer), and that channel is much quieter than the other one. So I'm compensating for that with the level knobs on the JBLs. Normally I would be setting the volume knob in the lower part of the "+4dB" range near 12 o'clock.

This weekend during rehearsal I'm going to try running the system in mono, sending a mono main out signal to the one fully working channel on the sub, then feeding one JBL from the cooresponding 100Hz low-cut output, and then running the other JBL off of the output from the first JBL.

Each JBL has an EQ button which is set to "boost" when depressed. It is currently set to the "flat" position on both speakers. The input button is set to "line" as opposed to "mic". Again, on both speakers.

I use a radio shack SPL meter to get my dBA measurements and all measurements are made at the desk.

As far as bass volume throughout the room the bass is noticeably stronger on the outer aisles. You can feel it in your feet as you walk from the middle of the room out to either side.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2013, 01:48:19 am »

What sends to foldbacks are you running and what's their setup (ie. routing, amps, eq, speakers)?

What vocal microphones are you using?

Pls upload a photo standing at the back of the stage looking out over the seating so I can see where the sound is going?

This weekend can you get some sound levels around the place (ie. At lead vocal location facing the lead vocal foldback wedge, right behind the drummer seat, front seats ctr (Pastors Seat), front seats left [ie. in front of side speakers], middle of seating center, rear of seating center) while your running a normal levels at the sound desk (ie. 94dBA).

Are the sound levels you've give for a slow speed and A weighting?

In the future I'm going to be chasing a bit of a plan with some dimensions of the room (including stage dimensions, seating areas, speaker locations, ceiling heights [at the lower edges at least so then I can calculate the apex], sound booth location).  I know you only have a 40' tap so you might have get creative and place something (ie. a pen) on the floor and move the tape along and add up the pieces.

Good to see those EQ buttons at the back are on flat though.

What's the model of your SPL meter?

You said that you can feel the bass in you feet when you move to the sides.  What's the floor made of? (ie. concrete with carpet or timber off the ground/with rooms under)

There's a lot to this sound thing isn't there....

Just to clarify the issues that we are trying to solve:
1. Vocals in front center seating are hard to hear.
2. Vocal mics feedback through the sub with a HPF less than 400Hz or so.
3. ???? Anything else I've particularly missed?

We have two wedges/floor monitors, one used for the background vocalists and one used for the acoustic guitarist.

They are both running off of AUXes going to a Mackie M1400i power amp. No EQ on the wedges.

We're using 3 different generations of Sennheiser mics. A single EW100, two EW100 G2s and two EW365 G3s. The two lead vocalists are using the 365s which are super-cardioid condensers. The backing vocalists have dynamic cardioid mics. We also have one singer on a Sennheiser e845 super-cardioid mic.

I'll get a picture of the seating from the stage this weekend some time.

This is our SPL meter:



I run it with an "A" weighting and at a "slow" response.

I don't know what the floor is made of, it almost feels "hollow". Certainly doesn't feel like carpet over concrete.

The vocal feedback through the sub is a non-issue at this point as I've found that by eliminating the "bad" channel on our sub I can set the high pass filter back down to a reasonable level without any excess low end from the mics.

Main issue is an inconsistency of sound throughout the room, e.g. vocals are hard to hear in some spots, piano is hard to hear in some spots, guitar and drums get quieter or louder in different parts of the room, bass gets more intense on the outer aisles, etc...
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Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2013, 05:16:21 am »

 Does the drummer not have a foldback?

Are the floor monitor any particular make or model or just a generic speaker?

Is the floor level somewhat higher than the ground surrounding the building or is there a basement under?

Very interesting regarding the sub feedback stopping.  I would never have thought that but yes sometimes strange things like that seem to happen.

Is the balcony used for much as it looks like the lighting truss is in the view line of the main screen?

I see the drums are miked.  Do you use them much?

Do you have the facilities to record you FOH mixes?

How do you find the Senn microphones?  Do u use much channel eq on them?

From your description, I'm getting the feeling that the general mix in the general seating area is lacking clarity with possibly the exception of the area right in front of the side speakers.  You said that some area are ok and others are not so good. Is this correct
is



We have two wedges/floor monitors, one used for the background vocalists and one used for the acoustic guitarist.

They are both running off of AUXes going to a Mackie M1400i power amp. No EQ on the wedges.

We're using 3 different generations of Sennheiser mics. A single EW100, two EW100 G2s and two EW365 G3s. The two lead vocalists are using the 365s which are super-cardioid condensers. The backing vocalists have dynamic cardioid mics. We also have one singer on a Sennheiser e845 super-cardioid mic.

I'll get a picture of the seating from the stage this weekend some time.

This is our SPL meter:



I run it with an "A" weighting and at a "slow" response.

I don't know what the floor is made of, it almost feels "hollow". Certainly doesn't feel like carpet over concrete.

The vocal feedback through the sub is a non-issue at this point as I've found that by eliminating the "bad" channel on our sub I can set the high pass filter back down to a reasonable level without any excess low end from the mics.

Main issue is an inconsistency of sound throughout the room, e.g. vocals are hard to hear in some spots, piano is hard to hear in some spots, guitar and drums get quieter or louder in different parts of the room, bass gets more intense on the outer aisles, etc...
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2013, 11:40:38 am »

Drummer and both keyboard players use IEMs. Backing vocalists and acoustic guitarist use floor monitors. Bassist just monitors himself through the sub and the lead vocalists don't use any monitoring at all.

The two floor monitors are Genz Benz SM12Hs. Model not only appears to be discontinued but also doesn't show up in their discontinued gear page.

There isn't a basement underneath, the floor is only a little bit higher than the ground outside.

The lighting person, the person running easy worship and the person recording the audio for the service all work up in the balcony.

Lately I've only been using the kick drum mic and maybe the tom mics during passages where there's a lot of toms.

I could record the main L/R mix, but it wouldn't be very representative of how the mix sounds in the room because the guitars and drums would be practically silent.

The Sennheiser mics appear to have a significant boost in the high frequencies, which can really bring out the sibilance in our vocalists to the point where a de-esser becomes necessary. I used to cut out a fair portion of the frequencies above 6KHz, but now I just use a "channel strip" effect insert on those channels because it has a de-esser on it.

In the back of the room you can hear everything pretty loud and clear. Near the front of the room is where the clarity basically starts to fall off, and once you get to the front row it sounds basically completely different than it did in the back, like there's a dead zone in the front row. There is also some difference between the center aisle and outter aisles, but less so.

Oddly enough the guitars and drums are quieter in the front row than the back row. I imagine this is possibly due to the walls behind the musicians reflecting the sound back.
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Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2013, 07:18:06 pm »

What model IEMs are the drummer and keyboard players using?  How are they fed?

The lighting, screen control and audio recording is done up on the balcony but your sound booth is down on the seating floor.  Is this correct?

Sounds like possibly a floating timber floor over a concrete or just over bear earth.  What's the wall construction (ie. concrete/timber frame)?

Can you record the L/R mains this weekend please?  I'd like to have a listen to what's getting fed to the sub & mains.  Even better would be to set up two mics (they need to be the same type and I'll need to know the models) in an XY config (ie. the heads about 1' apart and separated by about 70 facing center stage) near the sound desk and record them.  However for now, just the mains will probably be easier.  128bps stereo mp3 will be fine say about 5-10mins worth / 1 or 2 songs ... more if you want though.

Regarding the drums and guitar being louder at the back than the front, I think that what you will probably find is that the Drums and Guitar are much the same but that your Highs in everything else is dying off at the back making the illusion that the drums and guitar are getting louder.  It's all about the balance.

On that point, can you also get a photo of the guitar amp setup (ie. location, direction it is facing, angle up, etc)?

I'll give you something to try for the weekend though.  Put the following EQ on the vocals and AC guitar foldback (NOT their individual input channels but the AUX sent).

200Hz HPF
-6db @ 330Hz with a Q=4
+3dB @ 3.3kHz with a Q=5.6
+3.5kHz @ 10kHz with a Q=5.6

See the two very important points below and ensure their adhearance before implementing the following.  If anyone on stage says that it's to harsh turn the overall monitor level down.  Try that first and if they need it louder again but still say it too harsh put the overall volume back up and lower the 10kHz gain first in a few steps trying it each time ... then if it is still to harsh for them with 0dB @ 10kHz then lower the 3.5kHz as with the 10kHz in a few steps ... try it and then if it is still to harsh for them then slowly put the 330Hz back in just like you backed the 10kHz off in a few steps ... try it and then if it is still not right lower the HPF in a few steps back to wherever you had it originally. 

VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
1.  Make sure that you trial it throughout a song as opposed to them just talking into the microphone themselves.
JUST AS IMPORTANT POINT:
2.  Ensure that the Main Speakers are running at normal levels. 

The reasoning behind this is to ensure the vocalists and guitarist hear the fullness (lower muddy frequencies) from the FOH speakers but the clarity (higher frequencies) from their foldback.  It also means that the FOH doesn't get the wash of fullness from the foldback and thus muddy up the seating area (ie. FOH).  In my experience using this method, the stage people are usually saying it's too loud on stage before I feel like the stage levels need to come down. 

Let me know how it goes (but don't forget all the other things you need to do too ... ie. recording, photos, getting various levels around the room & stage)?

PS:  I have a few other things for you to try but we'll keep them for another day.

Drummer and both keyboard players use IEMs. Backing vocalists and acoustic guitarist use floor monitors. Bassist just monitors himself through the sub and the lead vocalists don't use any monitoring at all.

The two floor monitors are Genz Benz SM12Hs. Model not only appears to be discontinued but also doesn't show up in their discontinued gear page.

There isn't a basement underneath, the floor is only a little bit higher than the ground outside.

The lighting person, the person running easy worship and the person recording the audio for the service all work up in the balcony.

Lately I've only been using the kick drum mic and maybe the tom mics during passages where there's a lot of toms.

I could record the main L/R mix, but it wouldn't be very representative of how the mix sounds in the room because the guitars and drums would be practically silent.

The Sennheiser mics appear to have a significant boost in the high frequencies, which can really bring out the sibilance in our vocalists to the point where a de-esser becomes necessary. I used to cut out a fair portion of the frequencies above 6KHz, but now I just use a "channel strip" effect insert on those channels because it has a de-esser on it.

In the back of the room you can hear everything pretty loud and clear. Near the front of the room is where the clarity basically starts to fall off, and once you get to the front row it sounds basically completely different than it did in the back, like there's a dead zone in the front row. There is also some difference between the center aisle and outter aisles, but less so.

Oddly enough the guitars and drums are quieter in the front row than the back row. I imagine this is possibly due to the walls behind the musicians reflecting the sound back.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2013, 10:56:30 am »

I'll try to get to the rest of the questions this weekend but I thought I'd hit these ones now.

What model IEMs are the drummer and keyboard players using?  How are they fed?

The drummer is using Vic Firth headphones: http://www.vicfirth.com/products/headphones.php

I don't know if she uses the "drummer headphones" or the "stereo isolation headphones".

I think the piano/keyboard players are using Shure IEMs. We have an "OZ audio" (now Mackie) HMX-56 Headphone matrix mixer on stage that gets fed 3 different mono AUX sends from FOH.

The lighting, screen control and audio recording is done up on the balcony but your sound booth is down on the seating floor.  Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct.

Sounds like possibly a floating timber floor over a concrete or just over bear earth.  What's the wall construction (ie. concrete/timber frame)?

Timber frame, I imagine. I very much doubt there is any concrete there. Although the wall behind the stage/baptismal has brick behind it, unlike the other walls.
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Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #108 on: February 15, 2013, 04:46:01 pm »

The drummer is using Vic Firth headphones: http://www.vicfirth.com/products/headphones.php
I don't know if she uses the "drummer headphones" or the "stereo isolation headphones".
Ummm.  I'm not exactly understanding reasons I suppose.  Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones?  The drum screen to me suggests that the drums are being/have been played too loud in the past for FOH &/ stage.  This is the most common reason for such treatment.  Is that correct in this case too? 

To be honest when the drummer is playing at 95dBA but hearing it at 70dBA (ie. -25dB due to the headphones) then yes they are going to be giving it every thing just to hear themselves.  Makes for very physical, intense & passionate drumming but very loud, obnoxious clanging for everyone else in the room. 

So back to my question ... Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones from your end?
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2013, 05:19:26 pm »

Ummm.  I'm not exactly understanding reasons I suppose.  Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones?  The drum screen to me suggests that the drums are being/have been played too loud in the past for FOH &/ stage.  This is the most common reason for such treatment.  Is that correct in this case too? 

To be honest when the drummer is playing at 95dBA but hearing it at 70dBA (ie. -25dB due to the headphones) then yes they are going to be giving it every thing just to hear themselves.  Makes for very physical, intense & passionate drumming but very loud, obnoxious clanging for everyone else in the room. 

So back to my question ... Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones from your end?

Everything I know about that is second hand, since that was all said and done without my involvement or input...

We implemented a drum cage sometime around 2008, to help control the drum volume which, at the time, was definitely too high.

We've had the drummer on IEMs for as long as I can remember. I don't know if they've always been on IEMs of the noise-cancelling variety, but they've always had ear buds or headphones.

I am (soon, hopefully) working on completely changing how we mic the drums, and strongly considering eliminating the shield, but it will depend on how quiet the drummers are capable of playing.

My goal is to, whenever I actually get the chance, get a couple of our drummers and rework our drum micing, monitoring, and the shield.

At least one of the drummers has shown that they can play at a suitable volume level without the shield, but we really need to fix our drum mics and monitoring for the drummer before it can go away.
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