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[Kent Thompson]

And SMAART costs quite a bit more than I imagine the church would want to spend on such software. I've heard Room EQ Wizard does a lot of the same stuff though, that could be an option perhaps.

Even a great tool like SMAART can be misused. It is not really the cost of the tool as it is the skills of the person using it. Sometimes the wizard might get it right other times it might not. It can only make decisions based on the information it has which might not be enough to get it right.

 

[Jason Lucas]

Even a great tool like SMAART can be misused. It is not really the cost of the tool as it is the skills of the person using it. Sometimes the wizard might get it right other times it might not. It can only make decisions based on the information it has which might not be enough to get it right.

And that's the reason I don't even have any EQ on the mains. Seems like there's way too many ways to get it wrong.

[Brad Weber]

I don't have any EQ on the JBLs. I don't know very much about system tuning. I've read quite a bit about it, but my ear is simply not trained well enough yet to do it right. I could just use an RTA but I've been advised against it by what I've read here and elsewhere. RTA doesn't give any information on phase or time delay and doesn't account for the room at all.

A RTA does account for the room, phase based phenomena, etc. in that it can reflect the results of those issues on the frequency response.  What a RTA does not do is provide information that can help identify and/or address any the effects of the room, relative phase and so on.  If the relative phase of two speakers, a reflection from a wall, a room mode, etc. results in a dip in the frequency response a RTA may very well show that resulting dip in the response but it would not provide information to be able to differentiate that, which cannot be fixed with EQ, from a simple dip in the response of the speaker that can be fixed with EQ.  This can lead to people spending many hours applying massive amounts of EQ to try to address a response anomaly that can't be corrected with EQ.
 
However, while you may feel your ear is not well trained enough, there is no standard for what sounds 'right' other than what the listeners believe sounds right and you know your audience and their expectations as well as, if not better than, anyone.  Someone with less experience may not be as efficient and may have to implement much more of a trial and error approach, but that doesn't mean that they can't potentially improve the sound.

[Bob L. Wilson]

I can't reconcile

it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).

and

I can roll the HPF up to about 375Hz before there is any noticeable loss in body from the vocals. It's not until about 400 that it starts to really sound thin at all. With the HPF at 315Hz (my standard setting for spoken word right now), you can still feel plosives if the person speaking has the mic right up to their lips.

Unless the system has a massive response peak under 500Hz something just does not compute.

Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**

and

We used to do AUX-fed subs and just high passed the mains and low passed the sub with the PEQs in the board. It didn't sound as good though.

I would go back to square one. That cluster looks like a quality install and rarely does anybody bother with a quality install on cheap speakers. This last summer I walked in to a sanctuary in Canada and the system sounded awful turns out the cluster was triamp only Community speakers and the church was sending a full range signal to the woofers only! When I asked them after the service what they were using for crossover settings and got a blank stare I knew immediately what the problem was. They were trying to crutch it with a huge high frequency shelf boost and some sidefills but it was all bad. Something similar could explain both your cluster sounding "bad" and a huge excess of 100-500Hz in your room. I would start by playing full range dynamic music through the cluster and work with that until it sounds acceptable. If you can't make it sound acceptable then get up there and see what those speakers are and how they are wired/configured.

[Jason Lucas]

The center cluster is by a company called OAP.

http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/category/configurable-modular-systems

I believe it is from their Q series, but I'd have to get a closer look at them. I'll see if we can pull out the big ladder sometime soon and get a good look at them.

The center is being run off of one side of a QSC RMX 1450 power amp, and I have it high passed at 100Hz using the board EQ.

[Samuel Rees]

Bob is right - something doesn't compute. Tell your people that the best money you can possibly spend would be on a consult. If they resist, tell them it doesn't have to be any kind of large scale professional redeployment or anything - for a few hundred bucks you could just get a local professional engineer to come down just for a night and straighten the basics out.

[Bob L. Wilson]

The center cluster is by a company called OAP.

http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/category/configurable-modular-systems

I believe it is from their Q series, but I'd have to get a closer look at them. I'll see if we can pull out the big ladder sometime soon and get a good look at them.

The center is being run off of one side of a QSC RMX 1450 power amp, and I have it high passed at 100Hz using the board EQ.

OAP builds perfectly reasonable speakers. I have only ever come across a couple installs, but both performed fine. Those are probably not Q series as it looks like they have handles on top. Judging by their size perhaps they are http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/item/t-1502?category_id=55 I picked these because they are a biamp only example, where a standard speakon(pins 1+ and 1-) will drive only the 15 woofers. Maybe they are a full range model and one or both horns are toast?

Action plan:
1) Get the cluster sorted out. Less posting more investigation and analysis. If you aren't comfortable with this stop and beg the leadership to bring in a professional.
2) Split your signals! Instruments will go into the JBLs. Vocals only into the cluster. Go back to driving the sub off an aux. Keeping the vocals separate from the instruments will improve intelligibility as you avoid IM distortion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3XZnDkYfE.
3) Configure the JBLs as dual mono but leave them off to start.
4) Nothing but kick, bass and keys in the sub. Add them in that order one at a time so if the low end falls apart you know what to investigate.
5) You may find that with the wedges on, vocals only in the cluster, and the sub running but the JBLs off that the instruments are already a big muddy loud mess just from the stage wash.
6) Create and enforce a stage volume limit. No sense even turning on the JBLs for instrument reinforcement if the room is already too excited.
7) Once it sounds decent with just the backline, wedges, cluster and sub then and only then fire up the JBLs. Start by bringing up the level of whatever is too low in the wash from the wedges and backline, this is usually the keys, add in any other instruments that need more level to be balanced in the room one at a time.
7) Eventually you may want to switch the JBLs back to a stereo configuration and pan things appropriately one can then pull SMALL amounts of certain instrument signals say guitar or keys in to the cluster to anchor them.

If things fall apart go back a step and investigate what happened.

There were plenty of good mixes long before IEM became the must have thing, but those mixes where made by engineers that understood how to manage and work with the stage levels.

[Jason Lucas]

Re:

1) This sounds like a good idea, I will do some investigation on the center cluster.

2) I have tried vocals only in the center but it has sounded terrible every time we've tried it. (BTW, We aren't putting any instruments in the center right now if anyone was curious.)

3) The JBLs are practically dual mono anyway since we don't pan anything. Everything is center panned.

4) Back when we ran AUX-fed subs that's all we ever put in there was bass, kick and keys.

6) I don't have the authority to set a volume limit. When the guitarists and drummers play too loud I politely ask them to turn down.

[Scott Wagner]

3) The JBLs are practically dual mono anyway since we don't pan anything. Everything is center panned.

Since you're not panning anything, you've got a dual mono system - no "practically" involved.  You've got two 90 degree nominal coverage (approaching 360 degrees in the low end) speakers placed against a boundary and pointing at each other, and you're wondering why it doesn't sound good?  Do yourself (and the congregation) a favor and bring in an experienced professional.  It's the best money you'll ever spend.  It's never easy to admit you're in over your head, but it's the right thing to do.  It's impossible to properly diagnose all of the issues over the internet.  Boots on the ground is the only way.  Currently, you're trying to fight physics with EQ - that's a losing battle.

[dick rees]

Scott....

When it gets to five pages and the OP hasn't implemented any of the suggestions, it would seem that solving the "problem" is secondary to "discussing" it.  What I'm getting from all this is complain first, then dismiss all suggested fixes with "its' actually ok" or "it's still the best it's ever been"  when all signs point out to your basic noob syndrome and a distinct lack of a willingness to just "get in there and do it".

Time for my nap.