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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 61874 times)

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 06:33:07 PM »

For actual audio professionals, AUX-fed subs ARE the standard.  Your big complaint is that you have feedback from the vocal mics in the subs.  AUX-fed subs directly address this issue.  I don't understand your reluctance.

No offense intended, but your knowledge level is seriously lacking.  Those who have replied to you here have some serious credentials, and they know enough to know that even they don't know everything.  If you follow their advice, you'll have a much shorter path towards actually resolving your issues.  If you choose not to, prepare yourself for a long and frustrating experience while you learn the hard way.  We are here to help, but you have to actually allow us to help you.  Eventually, they'll stop trying.

The subwoofer feedback is the least of our worries right now, in my own opinion. I'd say our biggest issue is the comb filtering and mud caused by multiple sources of sound.

My church is the only one I've ever been to where the sub was run off an AUX. Every other sound system I've seen with a top/sub configuration simply used a crossover and ran everything through it. I find it odd to hear now that AUX-fed subs are considered standard...

We used to run an AUX sub for years, when we stopped the sound actually improved. So, I hope you see why that would lead me to believe that going back to aux-fed seems like taking a step backwards.

I don't know as much as a lot of you guys and that's kind of part of the reason I'm doing these tests instead of simply doing what you told me, because I'm trying to learn. I never said that I know everything, I know I don't otherwise I wouldn't be having any of these issues.
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Samuel Rees

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Main loud speaker options
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2013, 12:46:03 AM »

Do you understand why, when properly deployed, aux fed subs should not sound any different, with the exception of a reduction of  unwanted sources in the sub??? You've got yourself convinced that aux fed subs "sound worse" - you're wrong. You've got yourself convinced that they are "not standard" - and you are still wrong. Plenty of people don't aux feed, but its a standard config for many pro systems. Both the current venue I work at. (~500 cap) and the previous one (~200 cap) aux fed subs.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2013, 01:43:43 AM »

Do you understand why, when properly deployed, aux fed subs should not sound any different, with the exception of a reduction of  unwanted sources in the sub??? You've got yourself convinced that aux fed subs "sound worse" - you're wrong. You've got yourself convinced that they are "not standard" - and you are still wrong. Plenty of people don't aux feed, but its a standard config for many pro systems. Both the current venue I work at. (~500 cap) and the previous one (~200 cap) aux fed subs.

No, no no. You misunderstand.

I do not think they sound worse. I know why the sound improved after we changed from AUX fed subs, it was simply that we were getting the benefit of the low-cut out from the sub and we weren't getting so many shared frequencies between the tops and sub.

I see the benefit of AUX fed subs, it just doesn't seem necessary if I can fix my issues without it.

And, I had every reason to believe that that was a non standard approach. I don't personally know of anyone that does it. Other than I guess a few of the people on this forum.

That is honestly the only thing I had against AUX fed subs is that I believed that that was not the standard way to do things.

I don't like this attitude though that it's the only way to go. It's not, and I just proved that the other night. Will it be beneficial? Maybe, that depends. First thing I'd have to do is tell the other sound guys to un-learn everything they've ever known about AUX fed subs. Since before, we weren't just leaving the sends to the sub AUX at unity. I know I personally had the kick drum somewhere around +6dB going to the sub and then around unity (or slightly less) going to the tops.

So, the pros of AUX fed subs in my case are:

1. Keeps unwanted sources out of the sub

Cons are:

1. Have to train everyone to do things differently, and that assumes they'll even listen to me instead of just doing what they used to (guess which one's easier?).
2. Cannot make use of the sub's high cut outs (need an external crossover, two if I want one for the center speaker)
3. Lose an AUX (of course, not that big of an issue right now, but there was a point where we were using every AUX...)

If I wind up feeling like there's still too much unwanted stuff in the sub after all this is over with, then I'll absolutely move to an AUX-fed method. If it's not necessary, there's no sense in putting any extra effort into doing it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:46:13 AM by Jason Lucas »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2013, 06:57:53 AM »

No, no no. You misunderstand.

I do not think they sound worse. I know why the sound improved after we changed from AUX fed subs, it was simply that we were getting the benefit of the low-cut out from the sub and we weren't getting so many shared frequencies between the tops and sub.

I see the benefit of AUX fed subs, it just doesn't seem necessary if I can fix my issues without it.

And, I had every reason to believe that that was a non standard approach. I don't personally know of anyone that does it. Other than I guess a few of the people on this forum.

That is honestly the only thing I had against AUX fed subs is that I believed that that was not the standard way to do things.

I don't like this attitude though that it's the only way to go. It's not, and I just proved that the other night. Will it be beneficial? Maybe, that depends. First thing I'd have to do is tell the other sound guys to un-learn everything they've ever known about AUX fed subs. Since before, we weren't just leaving the sends to the sub AUX at unity. I know I personally had the kick drum somewhere around +6dB going to the sub and then around unity (or slightly less) going to the tops.

So, the pros of AUX fed subs in my case are:

1. Keeps unwanted sources out of the sub

Cons are:

1. Have to train everyone to do things differently, and that assumes they'll even listen to me instead of just doing what they used to (guess which one's easier?).
2. Cannot make use of the sub's high cut outs (need an external crossover, two if I want one for the center speaker)
3. Lose an AUX (of course, not that big of an issue right now, but there was a point where we were using every AUX...)

If I wind up feeling like there's still too much unwanted stuff in the sub after all this is over with, then I'll absolutely move to an AUX-fed method. If it's not necessary, there's no sense in putting any extra effort into doing it.
Jason, I agree with your list of cons. I personally don't like aux fed subs for many of the same reasons. When I bus the subs separately, I prefer to use "group-fed" subs, which accomplishes a couple things - doesn't take an aux. and doesn't require adjusting the sub level per channel. Which makes the subwoofers kind of like an effect.

I also agree with you that this likely isn't your biggest or even second biggest problem. Testing out for yourself the advice you're getting is a great way to not only learn, but to vet what other people say.

One more thing - kudos to you for sticking to this thread through 10 pages. I'm sure it's been a little hard on the pride now and again, but you are definitely heading in the right direction.
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Samuel Rees

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Main loud speaker options
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2013, 09:23:27 AM »

Fair enough, do that if you've got your reasons. Training is not something I think about often. I thought you were saying you thought there was some kinda of inherent difference in quality between the two configs, just wanted to make sure that was not your only reason!

+1 On the above, hope this wasn't too painful. Sounds like you've got stuff working a lot better and found a crucial problem!
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2013, 10:52:10 AM »

Thanks guys. Like I said I really do appreciate the advice.
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Samantha Wissenbach

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #96 on: February 10, 2013, 03:12:33 PM »

Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #97 on: February 10, 2013, 03:17:56 PM »

Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?

JJ......

Yeah, you've been following along and paying attention.....NOT.

If you'd been paying attention you'd know that logging in with anything other than your full, real name is against Forum rules.  You'll have to fix that before you can continue to participate.

As to the information you've asked for:

It has been given either in this thread or the other numerous threads on the same topic by the same OP.  And getting any info from Jason has been like pulling teeth.

Go ahead and school us.........after you learn how to follow the rules. 
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #98 on: February 10, 2013, 04:33:38 PM »

Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2013, 06:56:40 PM »

Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?

The Roland M-400 has 4 internal 31-band GEQs that can be switched to 8-band PEQs. I have one 8 band PEQ assigned to each main out.

The sub has an individual volume knob. It is currently set at "noon". I chose that setting after listening to music through the system and turning it up until it sounded "right".

The M-400 sort of "fakes" an LCR setup by using up one of the AUXes, but treating that AUX as a third main out. Each input channel has a percentage to which it is sent to the center channel, from 0 to 100%. I have all of the instruments set to 0% (actually the center send is just turned off for them) and the vocals at 60%, so they're 40% in the L/R main out channels. See picture below:



My mixes average between 92dBA and 96dBA, with maximum peaks at 98dBA.

The drum kit can hit 89dB all on its own if the drummer isn't giving an honest effort to play softly, I'd say we average about 85-90dBA of stage noise.

I've never noticed much of an issue when listening to professionally mastered tracks. The differences throughout the room are negligible, although the bass is stronger on the outer aisles of the seating area than in the middle.

As to the information you've asked for:

It has been given either in this thread or the other numerous threads on the same topic by the same OP.  And getting any info from Jason has been like pulling teeth.

This comment I don't understand. I've been more than willing to give information, assuming I have the information. A lot of stuff I just don't know. In the past few months I've learned quite a bit just about my church's audio system and the equipment I have. A few months back I did an inventory of all of our equipment, so now I finally know, for instance, what brand and model of kick drum mic we have.

I can't give dimensions for our room because I don't have them. We apparently don't have blue prints or floor plans for the building so if we wanted to know the dimensions we'd have to actually measure the room, and I don't have a tape measure that goes beyond 40 feet...

I also have no idea what model our center speakers are. I haven't gotten the chance to get a ladder out and get a good luck at them.

Most of the audio equipment we own and a lot of the methods we use have been in place since long before I joined the sound team.

But anyway, if anyone needs more info I'm happy to give it, provided I have it.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:02:49 PM by Jason Lucas »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2013, 06:56:40 PM »


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