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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 61851 times)

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2013, 03:31:29 PM »

Scott....

When it gets to five pages and the OP hasn't implemented any of the suggestions or supplied requested information, it would seem that solving the "problem" is secondary to posting on the InterWeb and "discussing" sound rather than "doing" sound.

Time to add to the IL......   

The thread was started on a Monday and it's only Thursday and I only have access to building when the doors are open...Wouldn't have had the chance.

If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.
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Scott Wagner

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2013, 03:51:57 PM »

If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.
We all realize that you're not the decision maker, and that all you can do is champion the idea of trying to get a qualified person on site.  No need for the Iggy List from my perspective.  I wish I could give you some simple fix, but the reality is that it's not so simple.  Where are you located?  Perhaps some nearby forum member could pop in for a "look-see" and a listen some Sunday.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2013, 04:01:48 PM »

The thread was started on a Monday and it's only Thursday and I only have access to building when the doors are open...Wouldn't have had the chance.

If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.

Jason....

It's the logically inconsistencies and constant self-contradictions that frustrate any attempts to take you seriously any longer.  Yes, this thread is only a few days old, but contains the same suggestions given to your numerous other posts.  Go back and think about this statement from your second post in this thread:

"If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much."

The answer is NO.....N......O......NO.

Your speakers are OK.

Your deployment of them is not.

It's not how the speakers sound by themselves, it's how they work IN THE ROOM.

Your speakers are fine.

Your deployment is not.

Beyond that, your dumping of the aux-fed subs is suspect.  As has been suggested, go back to that.

If you lack a proper crossover, BUY ONE.  Don't ask the church to buy it for you. They can be had for under $50.  If you're not willing to chip in on an absolutely essential and relatively inexpensive piece of gear, STOP COMPLAINING.

Same goes for a graphic EQ, although I would imagine that the capability exists within the Roland....or should, if it's not a total toy or recording-only console.

You don't need DSP, new speakers or anything else.  You need to have someone who knows what they're doing. 

At this point, it's not you.  You're a ways away from seeing how this stuff all works in the real world and you need a mentor on site.

You're spinning your wheels on the PSW by starting a new thread every time you're given good suggestions that you can't or don't put into practice.  This whole thread comes after you've been told in other threads that it's not your speakers, it's the deployment and your inexperience.  Yet you start a thread on new speakers.  You've stopped making sense.     

« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 04:24:42 PM by dick rees »
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2013, 05:23:24 PM »

I should apologize,

I just feel powerless here, and maybe on some level I thought that if I just asked the right questions to the right people that they'd come up with some magic fix-all solution. I don't think I conciously thought that, because typing it right now just felt silly. But I think I must have believed that on some level.

I'm more than willing to chip in my own money. Heck if I was a millionaire by now the church would have a whole new top of the line sound system (installed by a professional). I don't make a whole lot of money as I'm a college student, but I do have some, so I should be able to afford a crossover. I might just do that this week.

The number one complaint I hear from everyone involved in this mess (everyone on the sound team, the worship leaders and the senior pastor) is that our speakers suck. Maybe they wouldn't feel that way if the speakers had been depolyed correctly.

You're right though, sorry for using this forum as a place to vent my frustrations. I know you're all trying to help, and I am thankful that despite all these threads you've been willing to offer help anyway.
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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2013, 05:34:02 PM »

I should apologize,

I just feel powerless here, and maybe on some level I thought that if I just asked the right questions to the right people that they'd come up with some magic fix-all solution. I don't think I conciously thought that, because typing it right now just felt silly. But I think I must have believed that on some level.

I'm more than willing to chip in my own money. Heck if I was a millionaire by now the church would have a whole new top of the line sound system (installed by a professional). I don't make a whole lot of money as I'm a college student, but I do have some, so I should be able to afford a crossover. I might just do that this week.

The number one complaint I hear from everyone involved in this mess (everyone on the sound team, the worship leaders and the senior pastor) is that our speakers suck. Maybe they wouldn't feel that way if the speakers had been depolyed correctly.

You're right though, sorry for using this forum as a place to vent my frustrations. I know you're all trying to help, and I am thankful that despite all these threads you've been willing to offer help anyway.

A lot of my frustration is that I can't fix it for you over the Interweb.  But it is not a given that your speakers suck.  If that is being shoved down your throat, take a sabbatical and let it be someone else's problem.  If you move the speakers to the right place for good sound and are told that "they don't look good there".........move on to something else and let them go ahead and hang themselves.

Either cross the sub(s) over properly and aux feed them or forget it.

Keep all the vocal mics out of the subs (see aux-fed above).

If you don't have a workable (outside of any system processing) graphic EQ for the mains, get one.

And as always.......find a pro in your area to assist.

If the powers-that-be won't work together with you, it's vacation time.
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2013, 08:59:26 PM »

If the powers-that-be won't work together with you, it's vacation time.

Jason,

It sounds to me like you're banging your head on the wall in frustration.  I understand that feeling; Dick is right, though...if you've done everything you can to make known how the status quo is unacceptable and the reasoning behind it, you've said your peace.  Leave it at that, see what happens, and maybe you'll see positive results.  You might also see things crash and burn - but at least you tried.

You don't have to stick around for the fireball.
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Samuel Rees

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Main loud speaker options
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2013, 12:42:14 AM »

It does seem like you should be able to get some good mileage out of fixing your crossover and configuration. Aux fed subs are a simple way to make sure unwanted sources stay out of the subs. They should not "sound" different, with the exception of better isolation of non-sub-sources as long as there is not a weird gain stage somewhere in one of the chains.

What is the db/oct slope of the HPFs/LPFs on the Roland? If its 18 or 24 db/oct you should be able to do some solid output processing on the desk. Also, a crossover for your PRXs could definitely help with your low end issues because right now yours are running full range from what I understand. If you get a crossover or you determine your board has steep enough filters, fiddle with the frequency somewhere from 100-120 as the sub you mention has a 100hz LPF I believe I recall. Also, scope out the processing in the center cluster, and high pass it around the same.

Besides that - good advice coming from the rest of these guys I think.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2013, 03:02:28 AM »

It does seem like you should be able to get some good mileage out of fixing your crossover and configuration. Aux fed subs are a simple way to make sure unwanted sources stay out of the subs. They should not "sound" different, with the exception of better isolation of non-sub-sources as long as there is not a weird gain stage somewhere in one of the chains.

What is the db/oct slope of the HPFs/LPFs on the Roland? If its 18 or 24 db/oct you should be able to do some solid output processing on the desk. Also, a crossover for your PRXs could definitely help with your low end issues because right now yours are running full range from what I understand. If you get a crossover or you determine your board has steep enough filters, fiddle with the frequency somewhere from 100-120 as the sub you mention has a 100hz LPF I believe I recall. Also, scope out the processing in the center cluster, and high pass it around the same.

Besides that - good advice coming from the rest of these guys I think.

I haven't seen anything in the documentation for the Roland that specifies the order of the crossover but it looks like it's 12dB per octave, judging by the slope vs that of the M480 which can do 6, 12, or 18.

A Peavey 23XO is only $100 and can do 3 way mono. I was heading to guitar center this weekend anyway so I'll pick one up and give it a go. If the crossover fixes the HPF thing and I can turn that down on the vocals to a more typical setting the AUX feed might not be necessary.
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AllenDeneau

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2013, 04:24:25 AM »

Hey Jason, I'm new to the Roland M400, actually still haven't used it yet but starting next month I'll be on our Church tech team and we have the 400 also. I don't believe the 400 has built in crossover capabilities BUT it does have eq's that can be patched into ins and outs, so that's good for when you get the deployment fixed.

As someone mentioned, your entire system is basically producing the same frequencies BUT from 4 different spots. While you do have inputs sorted out to various sets of speakers, there's a LOT of similar frequencies in each speaker. See the attached picture for a look at what instruments overlap one another.

By adding a crossover you'll probably see a bit of clarity right away even without moving a speaker because you'll be eliminating same sounds from different points.  It was mentioned that as you don't have the PRX's crossed over or eq'd, since you don't you're certainly getting a lot of low frequency info from them that is also in the sub and they're arriving at the audience at different times creating lack of intelligibility. My guess is you're getting a prety muddy and boomy sound which makes understanding the vocals difficlut correct?
So a crossover is a great start.

As far as your PRX's "sucking", my guess is that's their way of saying the sound isn't good, in their opinion. People know what they like and what they don't like when it comes to sound and a mix BUT, most can't tell you what's causing their dislike and therefore "something" becomes the scapegoat. It's like taking a chevy suburban to a drag race vs a corvette. The suburban is a very nice vehicle BUT, it's not designed to race. So the non-pro racer stomps on the pedal when the green light drops and by the time he's getting off the line the corvette is dang near to the finish line.. When the non-pro racer, with his suburban, gets to the pits and is discouraged he lost, his statement is; "the suburban sucks". It doesn't suck, it just wasn't designed or set up for that use, you get my point.

Are there better speakers on the market, yep. Will they help your sound issue, probably not. Are there worse speakers on the market than your PRX's, ABSOLUTELY. The right tool used in the wrong way IS the still the right tool being used improperly...

Want to prove to your "haters" that the PRX's are a pretty good box? Bring them outside, place them on stands in an area with NO obstructions, as to avoid slapback, and run them with a very familiar song. My guess is that your "team" will find they're pretty ok, now you can start to help them see they need a professional to come in for a consult.

As I mentioned as well as did Bob, I'd work on finding the issue with the installed center cluster. It does look like a decent install so I'll "assume" they're deployed in a fashion for good coverage. A center cluster, like what you have hanging, is a GREAT solution for a room like what you have, a very reverberant room. The center cluster is called a single point source which simply means, the sound is coming from a single point. The benefit to this is you eliminate a bunch of issues with overlapping sound and sound arriving to the listeners ears at different time because the sound all starts from one location and moves uniformly outward.

I'd invest the time into testing the center cluster and determining the issue.

2) I have tried vocals only in the center but it has sounded terrible every time we've tried it. (BTW, We aren't putting any instruments in the center right now if anyone was curious.)

What do you mean when you say terrible? Could be a processing issue, could be a wiring issue, could be a componant issue but it needs to be determined as it may very well be your saving grace in this situation. I understand they're not your speakers BUT, you are renting the space for 2 more years so, even if the fix costs say, $1000, you've now only spent $500 for each remaing year, you've saved $X AND you've left the place in a better way than you found it while acheiving a better sound while you're there.

There are 3 things I think you need to become familiar with in order to help you.

1. Direct Field - the area in which the sound from the speaker hits the listeners ears with NO effect from the rooms boundaries (walls, floor etc...)
2. Reverberant Field -  the area in which the sound hitting the listeners ears is a reflection from the rooms boundaries
3. Critical Distance - this is the distance you can get from the speaker before you start "hearing" the sound from the speaker coming from other areas instead of directly from the speaker itself.

There are a number of other principles which would help you but, understanding those, if you don't already, will help you see how speaker placement is one of the most critical things within a system. See sound is physics and physics are laws, not just sugggestions. The laws of physics CANNOT be broken, only worked within.

I obviously don't know if you're read, or even heard of, this book but, I'll strongly suggest you find yourself a copy and read it front to back. I bought mine years ago and enjoyed reading it completely. It covered things I already knew AND helped explain things I didn't know. It's written for people on a sound team at a church. There are great sections on speaker deployment, how to eq, sound check, etc... It also have a great sound glossary in the back to better understand what many of these terms mean. I think it'll help you in a HUGE way as you're fighting this battle.

Here's a link to amazon for  copy: http://www.amazon.com/Celestial-Sound-Peavey-Better-Church/dp/B002IRERCK

After you've read that and understand it pretty well, it's then time to go to Yamaha's Live Sound Reinforcement Book. That book gets pretty in-depth....

Good luck Jason...
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2013, 11:15:46 AM »

Thanks for the other suggestions, I do want to address one point here though:

By adding a crossover you'll probably see a bit of clarity right away even without moving a speaker because you'll be eliminating same sounds from different points.  It was mentioned that as you don't have the PRX's crossed over or eq'd, since you don't you're certainly getting a lot of low frequency info from them that is also in the sub and they're arriving at the audience at different times creating lack of intelligibility. My guess is you're getting a prety muddy and boomy sound which makes understanding the vocals difficlut correct?
So a crossover is a great start.

First, we're using our QSC HPR subwoofer's built-in crossover. So we do have one, I just don't think it's working very well. Could just be a bad match up because the speakers are different brands?

I'm really not getting any lack of intelligibility. I never have trouble clearly hearing the vocals.

Here's what it looks like when you high pass one EQ and low pass the other at the same frequency on the M-400:

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2013, 11:15:46 AM »


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