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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 34362 times)

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 01:55:13 pm »

Sounds like applying your $3K to IEMs might be a good start.

Those are first on the list, for sure. And we actually may have found a system that will work really well for us, I'm taking the man in charge down to our local pro audio shop to check it out.
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

Samuel Rees

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Main loud speaker options
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2013, 02:04:27 pm »

I think just the DSP alone will give us some pretty significant improvement. Right now we're using the built-in crossover in our powered subwoofer and I don't think it's very steep because it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).

I don't think you can spend a cent until you get this system working properly. That's a crazy problem gear won't fix... any PRX system can be configured at least well enough (not like that) without a separate system processor if you at least have parametrics on your output (which it sounds like you do).
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2013, 02:18:18 pm »

I don't think you can spend a cent until you get this system working properly. That's a crazy problem gear won't fix... any PRX system can be configured at least well enough (not like that) without a separate system processor if you at least have parametrics on your output (which it sounds like you do).

We used to do AUX-fed subs and just high passed the mains and low passed the sub with the PEQs in the board. It didn't sound as good though.
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

Samuel Rees

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Main loud speaker options
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 02:54:33 pm »

Jason, it's so much more than aux fed v.  full range. It doesn't matter. Especially with an equipped digital desk you should not be putting a 280 Hz HPF on PRX mains. The woofer in the 535 has got to be crossed internally at 300 or so right??? You've nearly reached it! It be hard to swallow but you have not even got this rig working right. You can spend $3000 or whatever on some new speakers and deploy them badly like this one or you can at least hire a pro for an afternoon for a few hundred bones and get your PRX system functioning ok!

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Jared Koopman

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 03:15:52 pm »

Jason,

As someone mentioned earlier based on what we know, this sounds like a people problem. I have been in your shoes and sometimes the best thing you can do is simply tell them that if they are not willing to do this the right way, you will not be a part of it. Ya it hurts sometimes because we want to help out, but if leadership is simply not willing to heed due diligence, then sometimes we just have to say our peace and move on.

I know you are probably beating your head against a wall trying to get them the right information. Perhaps the best thing you can do is simply say to them the right course of action and that anything outside of that, you are not qualified to help them. Sure it might hurt our ego to admit that, but sometimes that builds the trust and respect...knowing when we are in over our heads.

You have been given good advice here. I suspect that there is more to this story (past history, etc) that you might not even be aware of and thus the reason they refuse to heed the advice. My advice tell them the truth, and walk away.

Jared
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 03:49:39 pm »

Jason, it's so much more than aux fed v.  full range. It doesn't matter. Especially with an equipped digital desk you should not be putting a 280 Hz HPF on PRX mains. The woofer in the 535 has got to be crossed internally at 300 or so right??? You've nearly reached it! It be hard to swallow but you have not even got this rig working right. You can spend $3000 or whatever on some new speakers and deploy them badly like this one or you can at least hire a pro for an afternoon for a few hundred bones and get your PRX system functioning ok!

The 280Hz HPF is on the vocal channels, not on the mains. I had the mains high passed at 100Hz.
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

Scott Wagner

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 06:46:15 pm »

The 280Hz HPF is on the vocal channels, not on the mains. I had the mains high passed at 100Hz.
Is a 280Hz HPF on the vox really necessary?  There are a lot of useful things going on in the vox down to about 100Hz.  That could be part of your vocal intellegibility issue.  The other obvious part is that your PRX mains are pointed at each other causing cancellations right in the center of the room of anything that's close to equal level in left and right - like your center panned vox.

We're not bashing you here.  We are seriously trying to help you.  Save your pennies, take some time to increase your knowledge base, and bide your time until the new facility shows up.  Once the new facility is in place (hopefully with some input from a proper audio consultant before construction), bring in a professional to design, spec, and install a proper system for that space.  Keep your PRX for your portable system.  If you can't get those PRX to sound good, then you're doing something wrong - yet another opportunity to learn.
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Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 06:56:33 pm »

Is a 280Hz HPF on the vox really necessary?  There are a lot of useful things going on in the vox down to about 100Hz.  That could be part of your vocal intellegibility issue.  The other obvious part is that your PRX mains are pointed at each other causing cancellations right in the center of the room of anything that's close to equal level in left and right - like your center panned vox.

We're not bashing you here.  We are seriously trying to help you.  Save your pennies, take some time to increase your knowledge base, and bide your time until the new facility shows up.  Once the new facility is in place (hopefully with some input from a proper audio consultant before construction), bring in a professional to design, spec, and install a proper system for that space.  Keep your PRX for your portable system.  If you can't get those PRX to sound good, then you're doing something wrong - yet another opportunity to learn.

I can roll the HPF up to about 375Hz before there is any noticeable loss in body from the vocals. It's not until about 400 that it starts to really sound thin at all. With the HPF at 315Hz (my standard setting for spoken word right now), you can still feel plosives if the person speaking has the mic right up to their lips. My youth pastor could easily shake the room with his voice if we rolled off the HPF.

There isn't any problem with vocal intelligibility. I never have a problem hearing or understanding any of the vocalists, or the Pastor. The problem is only in certain parts of the room and only when the center speaker is off.

When we run the center you can hear the Pastor and the lead vocal just fine (although the backing vocals can get lost in the mix in certain parts of the room, I've been told).

If we turn the center off, you can hear the vocals just fine on either side of the room and in the back of the room, but you lose them the closer you get to the center aisle and the closer you get to the front row (like where the Pastor sits).
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

Scott Wagner

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2013, 07:47:55 pm »

There isn't any problem with vocal intelligibility. I never have a problem hearing or understanding any of the vocalists, or the Pastor. The problem is only in certain parts of the room and only when the center speaker is off.

When we run the center you can hear the Pastor and the lead vocal just fine (although the backing vocals can get lost in the mix in certain parts of the room, I've been told).

If we turn the center off, you can hear the vocals just fine on either side of the room and in the back of the room, but you lose them the closer you get to the center aisle and the closer you get to the front row (like where the Pastor sits).
What you're describing is exactly what I was talking (typing) about.  You ARE getting cancellation in the center - physics dictates it.  You are covering up the problem with the center cluster, but it's still a problem.  Like I said before, it's another opportunity to learn.  Do some reading on "comb filtering" to begin your journey.  The $3000 that you're trying to spend will be better used in your new facility.
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Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2013, 08:04:41 pm »

What you're describing is exactly what I was talking (typing) about.  You ARE getting cancellation in the center - physics dictates it.  You are covering up the problem with the center cluster, but it's still a problem.  Like I said before, it's another opportunity to learn.  Do some reading on "comb filtering" to begin your journey.  The $3000 that you're trying to spend will be better used in your new facility.

At this point I've already decided not to mention that list I posted in the first thread to the church leadership. Hopefully they don't just buy some speakers anyway. They have bought sound equipment without any input from the sound team in the past...

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying I didn't believe you or something when you said we're getting cancellation in the center. We definitely are, it's pretty apparent just from walking around in the room, especially in the low end. I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you.

My problem is that I don't believe there is really anything we can do about it. I mean, unless you guys have some suggestions about what else we can do with those JBLs given our room. I'm absolutely open to suggestions but just be aware that I might not be able to do some of the things you suggest, if only because the leadership doesn't agree.

If it were up to me I'd have replaced the center speakers with better sounding ones right after we moved in. They appear to have been professionally installed (although I can't verify that), and they seem to have good coverage. They just sound like garbage. I think if we had replaced those when we moved in we could have put the JBLs in a closet and just used the center cluster.

But I agree with you guys, it does seem like it would be a waste to replace any of our mains at this point. So, like I said, if there's any suggestions you have for improvements to our speaker placement, please let me know and I'll consider them and even try them if I'm able.

One piece of gear I think would still be worth the investment, regardless, is some DSP. Just having a real 24dB per octave crossover would probably help out a lot and should remove the need to high pass the vocal channels so high.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 08:06:48 pm by Jason Lucas »
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.
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