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[Samantha Wissenbach]

Yea, have a check into the history of it and get back.  On a side note, I wouldn't restrict yourself by saying that you've got to get the drum micing all good because you probably will find that you won't want more than you have already.

Either way the sheild can probably stay.  I think the main thing is to get the ear muffs off the drummer so they can hear themself.  In this case I think a foldback wedge would be useful.  Maybe not though.  If the drummer cann't hear the lead vocalist, maybe they should play a little softer and thus it will reduce the drum level.  However, they do need to hear the vocals clearly to play togther as a band so I think that they need some foldback for clarity.  The drummers need to feel like they're in the same room to that they can work with you and not all on their own in their own sound world in their own little room. It can feel very isolating. Not good.

That's really what church is all about ... being together and sharing the experience and life with each other.  Always take some time to think about that aspect.  It's so easy to get consumed with just the technical sound aspects.

Looking forward to the recordings.   

Everything I know about that is second hand, since that was all said and done without my involvement or input...

We implemented a drum cage sometime around 2008, to help control the drum volume which, at the time, was definitely too high.

We've had the drummer on IEMs for as long as I can remember. I don't know if they've always been on IEMs of the noise-cancelling variety, but they've always had ear buds or headphones.

I am (soon, hopefully) working on completely changing how we mic the drums, and strongly considering eliminating the shield, but it will depend on how quiet the drummers are capable of playing.

My goal is to, whenever I actually get the chance, get a couple of our drummers and rework our drum micing, monitoring, and the shield.

At least one of the drummers has shown that they can play at a suitable volume level without the shield, but we really need to fix our drum mics and monitoring for the drummer before it can go away.

[Jason Lucas]

Yea, have a check into the history of it and get back.  On a side note, I wouldn't restrict yourself by saying that you've got to get the drum micing all good because you probably will find that you won't want more than you have already.

Either way the sheild can probably stay.  I think the main thing is to get the ear muffs off the drummer so they can hear themself.  In this case I think a foldback wedge would be useful.  Maybe not though.  If the drummer cann't hear the lead vocalist, maybe they should play a little softer and thus it will reduce the drum level.  However, they do need to hear the vocals clearly to play togther as a band so I think that they need some foldback for clarity.  The drummers need to feel like they're in the same room to that they can work with you and not all on their own in their own sound world in their own little room. It can feel very isolating. Not good.

That's really what church is all about ... being together and sharing the experience and life with each other.  Always take some time to think about that aspect.  It's so easy to get consumed with just the technical sound aspects.

Looking forward to the recordings.   

We're definitely not putting a foldback in the drum cage. For several reasons:

1) We don't have an extra foldback to spare (and getting one that sounds as good as the drummer's headphones would be cost prohibitive)
2) A foldback wouldn't really fit in there. There's barely enough room for what we already have in there.
3) We're trying to move away from amps and wedges, with the end goal of having everyone on IEMs.

The drummer needs some sort of monitor in order to hear the rest of the band, and they already have one that works well. The church isn't going to go out and buy a monitor wedge when the drummer already has a working monitor solution.

I'm looking at going from spot mics on each drum to just a good pair of overheads and using the "recorderman" drum micing technique to get a good image of the entire kit. My goal is to make it so the sound coming into the overheads matches the unamplified sound of the kit as closely as possible. Then, we'd put those mics in the drummer's ears loud enough so that they can clearly hear themselves and don't have to play too hard.

After that, we can keep the cage if needed, or otherwise ditch it.

Anyway I also had a concern about the recording. We aren't really doing any original music, it's mostly Hillsong stuff, and while we have a church copyright license (and a rehearsal license, I believe) from CCLI but not a streaming and podcast license or similar license so I don't think I'm legally allowed to post a recording of our worship here on a public forum...

[Samantha Wissenbach]

Get the recording but we'll work out a way of transferring is via a public forum.  I'll PM you.

So your not too concern about the volume of the drums on stage and in the seating area at the moment?

We're definitely not putting a foldback in the drum cage. For several reasons:

1) We don't have an extra foldback to spare (and getting one that sounds as good as the drummer's headphones would be cost prohibitive)
2) A foldback wouldn't really fit in there. There's barely enough room for what we already have in there.
3) We're trying to move away from amps and wedges, with the end goal of having everyone on IEMs.

The drummer needs some sort of monitor in order to hear the rest of the band, and they already have one that works well. The church isn't going to go out and buy a monitor wedge when the drummer already has a working monitor solution.

I'm looking at going from spot mics on each drum to just a good pair of overheads and using the "recorderman" drum micing technique to get a good image of the entire kit. My goal is to make it so the sound coming into the overheads matches the unamplified sound of the kit as closely as possible. Then, we'd put those mics in the drummer's ears loud enough so that they can clearly hear themselves and don't have to play too hard.

After that, we can keep the cage if needed, or otherwise ditch it.

Anyway I also had a concern about the recording. We aren't really doing any original music, it's mostly Hillsong stuff, and while we have a church copyright license (and a rehearsal license, I believe) from CCLI but not a streaming and podcast license or similar license so I don't think I'm legally allowed to post a recording of our worship here on a public forum...

[Jason Lucas]

Get the recording but we'll work out a way of transferring is via a public forum.  I'll PM you.

So your not too concern about the volume of the drums on stage and in the seating area at the moment?

The drum volume is really more of an annoyance than an "issue". No complaints from the audience about overwhelming drums. Would like some more control though. I think we'll find a way, just need to keep working at it.

Update after mixing tonight:

I changed the way the speakers are hooked up. One of the JBLs is hooked up to the 100Hz low-cut output (the fully functional one) and the other JBL is daisy chained off the first.

Had all the microphones' HPF settings down to about 180Hz. Any lower and the vocals get a tad too "boomy" for my taste. The sound was pretty good tonight, clean and full. I think our bass has actually improved. I no longer notice a big change between the middle of the room and the outer aisles.

I also have a recording of tonight's worship set on a USB drive. I don't normally mix on Sunday mornings, but this week I am, so I'm going to record that service as well.

[Samuel Rees]

Sounds like you've eliminated a problem! 180 is a completely reasonable vocal HPF. The old 250++ settings were a symptom. One channel lpf must be bad on that sub.

[Jason Lucas]

Sounds like you've eliminated a problem! 180 is a completely reasonable vocal HPF. The old 250++ settings were a symptom. One channel lpf must be bad on that sub.

Actually I think it's a problem with one of the inputs, the XLR connector looks like it was hit with a hammer or something.

Update after sound this morning: To be quite honest, this morning's sound was probably the best I've ever heard in this building.

I took the SPL meter up to the front row and there's about a 1-2dB increase in volume from back in the booth. Negligible, but noticeable if you're listening for it.

We're still using our center speaker, running it off an AUX.

As far as spoken word clarity throughout the room, it apparently sounded kind of muddy underneath the balcony, noticeably better near the booth, and the muddyness was nearly imperceptible in the seating area. Or at least that's what one of the ushers told me.

Samantha: I have two recordings ready.

[Samuel Rees]

Input, filter, whatever one channel wasn't working for you. Long thread, but it seems like you've gained some ground!

[Samantha Wissenbach]

So what your saying is that it's the cable to the sub and not the sub itself.  It this correct?

1-2 dB difference is sounding good.  Still looking forward to those photos from up on stage as I'm not yet clear as to the size, height & depth of the balcony arrangement.

Center cluster AUXed:  I don't think that you'll be able to get rid of that arrangement to be quite honest.  We might look at the signal getting sent there but that's all.  For now hardware wise, I think that you really do need that centre cluster and in it's right location and aimed at the correct direction.

I'm glad to hear that the sound was good this weekend.  What do you feel made the change?

Did you get to those EQ setting on the foldbacks?

Jason:  Got those recording.  I will listen to them later and get back to you.  Thanks for that.

Actually I think it's a problem with one of the inputs, the XLR connector looks like it was hit with a hammer or something.

Update after sound this morning: To be quite honest, this morning's sound was probably the best I've ever heard in this building.

I took the SPL meter up to the front row and there's about a 1-2dB increase in volume from back in the booth. Negligible, but noticeable if you're listening for it.

We're still using our center speaker, running it off an AUX.

As far as spoken word clarity throughout the room, it apparently sounded kind of muddy underneath the balcony, noticeably better near the booth, and the muddyness was nearly imperceptible in the seating area. Or at least that's what one of the ushers told me.

Samantha: I have two recordings ready.

[Samantha Wissenbach]

Samantha: I have two recordings ready.

Well thankyou very much for those recording.  First I must commend your fine team on stage ... make sure you pass that on to them.  Your lead singer lead well and the elec guitarist was right there supporting.  The bass player was playing with definition (I'll be giving my bass player a listen to him/her before Sunday).  The keys, acoustic and backing singers were in the mix but were only audible hear and there.  The drummer was pretty solid too and I'm sure even stronger in the room as opposed to the recording.

Now regarding the mix part itself.  This has two parts which I'll like to point out first and we'll discuss them first.

Point 1:  The general bass end (of the frequency spectrum not necessarily the bass guitar) was very overpowering by about 8dB.  Assuming that it generally sounded alright in the room, indicates that the system EQ needs a boost of about the same so that your not putting it in the mix. 

It seems strange that that would be the case as you said that professional mixes (ie. CD tracks) sounded ok.  I'm assuming that was with flat EQ on the CD channel.  Is this correct?


Point 2:  Even out of the room (ie. in the recording) your vocals were lacking clarity.  They seemed behind (I'll explain the term "behind" another day) the guitar and the drum on the Saturday Mix and still behind the guitar on the Sunday Mix (the drum were a fair bit back in the Sunday mix) but the vocals were still lacking clarity.

Can you have a listen to the two recording yourself on a reasonable sound system be that home hi-fi, car, PA system (but not the church system) and let me know what your thoughts and feelings are regarding the following:
1.  How the recording itself sounds (ie. overall tonal balance, instrument clarity and levels, vocals clarity & levels, etc)?
2.  How they reflected the live room sound.

Question:  When you are standing about 1/3rd of the seating area back from the front row of seats in the center isle and shut your eyes, describe which direction do you are hearing the vocalists from (ie. which direction does it sound like the vocalists are).

[Jason Lucas]

I don't have access to any real hifi system, I just have my computer speakers and my Sony MDRs.

That said, I took a close listen on both.

The Saturday recording is just a very bad representation of my mix. The balance between vocals and instruments was nothing like that in the room on Saturday.

Also, neither of these recordings took into account the fact that I also have vocals going to a center speaker AUX. I'm fairly certain the recordings would be a good 75-80% vocal if I had included that. Rest assured, in the room the vocals are absolutely the dominant part of the mix.

Now, as to the Sunday recording:

On my speakers the bass was not overpowering at all, perfectly normal for my mixes, in fact I was surprised to hear the kick drum that clearly, as most of the time when I've recorded just the mains out off the board, you can't hear it at all.

The guitars were a little all over the place volume wise but it was that way in the room too, the guitar players are not always very consistent, especially with volume pedal settings. There were >6dB jumps in signal level when the guitar players changed pedals.

I would have made the lead vocalist a little more prominent if this was the mix I was hearing while in the room, but not a whole lot more I don't think. The background vocalists are right about where I would want them.

Also, had I known that that's what the drums sounded like coming through the mains I'd have made some changes. For one thing, the overheads sound too hot compared to the snare. I would have made the snare quite a bit louder and turned the overheads down a bit. The toms also sound like garbage in this recording.

When I listened through my Sony MDR headphones, I only thought the bass was just a little too loud, maybe 3dB. After adjusting that, turning down the OHs, and turning up the snare I think I'd be rather happy with the Sunday mix if I was listening on cans.

[ProSoundWeb Community]