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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 61819 times)

Jason Lucas

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Main loud speaker options
« on: January 28, 2013, 04:17:35 PM »

So, regardless of what room we move to, and regardless of what we eventually wind up with for our permanent speaker system, we want to replace our "travel" speakers that we've been using as mains for the past 4 years. We really are not very happy with their sound (or their durability, for that matter).

I've compiled a list of speakers in various price ranges that I think could be good candidates.

My requirements were for passive cabs, up to $3000, with a nominal coverage pattern of at least 90 x 50, pole-mountable, and I tended towards 2-way systems with 12" woofers. I also looked for flyable models when I could.

The resulting list (including amps matched to the program rating) is below:

SpeakersPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
EV Live X ELX112$300500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
Yamaha C112V$350350wCrown XLS 1000$299350w
JBL PRX412M$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
Peavey SSE 12$530500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV Tour X TX1122$7301000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
EV ZX3$9001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AC2212$1,024500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV EVF-1122S$1,1921000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
JBL AE AM5212$1,520600wQSC GX5$400700w
RCF TT22$2,049800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV EVF-1122D$2,0811200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AM7212$2,4001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
SubsPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
Yamaha CW115V$400500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV ELX118$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV ZX1-Sub$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
Yamaha CW118V$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
EV TX1181$7501000wQSC GX7$6001000w
JBL PRX418S$7501600wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
RCF S8018$1,2002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
EV EVF-1181S$1,500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
JBL AL7115$1,5002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
JBL ASB6115$1,5001600wPeavey IPR 5000   $7001510w
JBL ASB6118$2,0002400wCrown I-T5000 HD$6,0002500w
JBL ASB7118$3,0004000wCrown MA-9000i$5,7003500w
System ProcessorsPrice Range
dbx DriveRack PA$250-$400
Peavey VSX 26$450
dbx DriveRack PA+$319-$500
TC Electronic XO24$799
dbx DriveRack 260$600-$1000

Any other suggestions? Anything in the list you'd recommend against?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:20:24 PM by Jason Lucas »
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Josh Daws

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 06:38:33 PM »

i suggest you go to you local installer that sells this equipment. get them to do a site visit and make recommendations. My reason for suggesting to do this is that we could unknowingly suggest the wrong product for your needs.

we can give a good suggestion, but to say this speaker is better than this for x reason, you should really consult your local intallation dealer.

BTW - that is a really extensive and good list...
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 06:40:25 PM »

The church leadership has made it pretty clear to me that they don't think bringing someone in for that is worth the cost. So unless someone is willing to come in and tell us what we need for free, then that idea's out.

I've talked about this in previous threads a little bit, and as much as we all know that it would be better to just do things by the book, I can see where the leadership is coming from.

This church has been around for a little over 20 years now. They've had sound reinforcement in some shape or form for the past 15. At first the goal was simply to have sound that worked, but as they got better equipment and more competent volunteers we moved from having working sound to having sound that was almost sort of kind of okay to having sound that wasn't half bad.

Fast forward to about 3 years ago when our main loudspeakers blew out and our Mackie TT24 got swirlies and wiped everything. We replaced the Mackie with a Roland digital console complete with digital snakes, and we replaced our dead speakers with the JBL PRX 535s that we had boxed up in the back room, for use at retreats and such. Since the PRXs sounded good enough (in fact they sounded better than our old mains), we continued to use them.

So for a good 3 years, our sound has been "good enough" it hasn't been fantastic or anything, but it's better than a lot of churches our size, for sure.

Now, everyone involved in production at the church really wants better sounding speakers. There's a pretty unanimous opinion that the ones we have now are really not that great.

If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much.

My point here is that even though we'd see a much bigger improvement by not just getting better sounding speakers, but getting the right speakers for our application, and putting them in the proper location, that we should still see improvement even if the only thing that changes is that the speakers themselves sound better.

So long as our sound is "good enough" without the help of a professional, I seriously doubt they will bring one in. My hope is that they'll come around, but I'm not going to bank on it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:49:03 PM by Jason Lucas »
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Scott Wagner

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 08:09:17 PM »

If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much.

My point here is that even though we'd see a much bigger improvement by not just getting better sounding speakers, but getting the right speakers for our application, and putting them in the proper location, that we should still see improvement even if the only thing that changes is that the speakers themselves sound better.

So long as our sound is "good enough" without the help of a professional, I seriously doubt they will bring one in. My hope is that they'll come around, but I'm not going to bank on it.
The PRX line isn't the best out there, but if it doesn't sound good with those, I doubt better speakers with the same coverage pattern deployed in the same way will make much of difference.  The most likely senario is that the pattern and deployment of the current speakers is the majority of what is "wrong" with your system.  Bringing in a professional would help address that (and many other) potential problem.  A professional will give you proper product choice, proper numbers, proper deployment, and proper tuning.  The problem is that the leadership wants "better sound", but they don't want to bring in any expertise to achieve that goal.  Given that particular situation, they likely won't be impressed with their results.  If improvements in sound quality are important, bring in a professional.  If they are not important, don't change a thing (except, perhaps, to try different speaker placement and tuning until you find some noticable improvement).  There's no use wasting the church's money on a lateral move (no matter how expensive it is).
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Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 08:24:08 PM »

The PRX line isn't the best out there, but if it doesn't sound good with those, I doubt better speakers with the same coverage pattern deployed in the same way will make much of difference.  The most likely senario is that the pattern and deployment of the current speakers is the majority of what is "wrong" with your system.  Bringing in a professional would help address that (and many other) potential problem.  A professional will give you proper product choice, proper numbers, proper deployment, and proper tuning.  The problem is that the leadership wants "better sound", but they don't want to bring in any expertise to achieve that goal.  Given that particular situation, they likely won't be impressed with their results.  If improvements in sound quality are important, bring in a professional.  If they are not important, don't change a thing (except, perhaps, to try different speaker placement and tuning until you find some noticable improvement).  There's no use wasting the church's money on a lateral move (no matter how expensive it is).

I understand that. As I have mentioned before, I completely support the idea of bringing in a professional. I just haven't been able to convince the church to bring one in.

I think just the DSP alone will give us some pretty significant improvement. Right now we're using the built-in crossover in our powered subwoofer and I don't think it's very steep because it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).

As far as coverage I'm hoping for something around 120 x 60, which some of those speakers mentioned above have.

To be honest, I think our room's acoustics are a bigger problem than the speakers, but the amount of treatment it would take to really "fix" the room is far greater than the amount we want to spend on a building we're going to be in for less than 2 years.

As far as the placement of the speakers, we are extremely limited in our options of where to put the speakers, since they're pole-mounted. If we had fly-able speakers that might be a different case.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 08:41:21 PM »

Good luck to all concerned.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 08:44:47 PM by dick rees »
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AllenDeneau

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2013, 08:49:42 PM »

i suggest you go to you local installer that sells this equipment. get them to do a site visit and make recommendations. My reason for suggesting to do this is that we could unknowingly suggest the wrong product for your needs.

we can give a good suggestion, but to say this speaker is better than this for x reason, you should really consult your local intallation dealer.

BTW - that is a really extensive and good list...

+1 to the above...

I understand where you're coming from Jason. Before we moved, our Church back home was in the middle of a $7,000,000 building project for phase 1, sanctuary and offices only, and regardless of what I said and how much I pleaded with them to bring an acoustical designer and integrator into help in the building design as well as a system design, they refused putting little to no importance on getting the right tools for the job :( My forehead was so sore from all the banging it on the wall.... We had TC Furlong right down the road ready to help.

Anyway, I'm sure you came at the suggestion this way but just in case, have you explained that having someone come in and measure the room acoustically they may find that it is just speaker placement or treatments and the fix could be under the $3k mark, saving them money and being better stewards of the Church's $$$?

I'm just beginning to work with our current Church's sound team and when I get the opportunity I'll be suggesting to bring someone in because I'm CERTAIN the issues we have is speaker deployment along with a few other things I can correct such as the board and DBX routing...

The only piece of gear I'm going to suggest against is the Driverack PA+. I had the DR PA and really didn't like it. I didn't like it's sound nor was it as flexible as I wanted. If I were to go Driverack again it'd be the 260 at a minimum or the 480, I've heard that the 480 sounds a ton better.. In my own system I'm implementing the Peavey VSX26 which I seem to like a lot so far...

Good luck.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 09:01:48 PM »

Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.

Treatment is out the window because we're going to be in this building for less than two years and the amount of treatment we would need is pretty cost-prohibitive.

About the driverack you're right, I haven't heard that many good things about the DRPA or PA+. People say good things about the 260 but it's pricey. The Peavey looks like it might be a good option.
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Josh Daws

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 11:44:27 PM »

Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.

Treatment is out the window because we're going to be in this building for less than two years and the amount of treatment we would need is pretty cost-prohibitive.

About the driverack you're right, I haven't heard that many good things about the DRPA or PA+. People say good things about the 260 but it's pricey. The Peavey looks like it might be a good option.

take this into consideration...you are about to waste money...if you are going to be out of the building in LESS than 2 years time, those speakers will more than be no longer applicable (maybe useful elsewhere) to you "new" venue. in which you will have to purchase a new FOH system.

i don't mean to sound blunt,  i would rather give my blunt, honest, and straight up advice, then beat around the bush telling you my opinions on speakers in which probably wont work how you would like. you will also find that speakers will sound completely different on the ground, versus flown.

if i were to recommend ANY speaker is would be JBL VRX series. you will spend at least $2500 a cabinet, but this series has great coverage and plenty of power. and also horn throw selection switch. and if you get the crown I-TECH 4x3500 amp this will negate any need for a Driverack. its networkable and you will have enough power to run2 tops and 2 subs per side, which is more than enough system to go into any venue space. and the VRX Series are flyable. DO NOT just by any regular speaker cabinet that has holes for fly points, it probably wont suit your FUTURE needs..

so you got my recommendation...but my EVEN MORE HONEST recommendation is to wait until you are in your new venue, and get a PA system that will work with that system. and go passive! :)

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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »

So, regardless of what room we move to, and regardless of what we eventually wind up with for our permanent speaker system, we want to replace our "travel" speakers that we've been using as mains for the past 4 years. We really are not very happy with their sound (or their durability, for that matter).

I've compiled a list of speakers in various price ranges that I think could be good candidates.

My requirements were for passive cabs, up to $3000, with a nominal coverage pattern of at least 90 x 50, pole-mountable, and I tended towards 2-way systems with 12" woofers. I also looked for flyable models when I could.

The resulting list (including amps matched to the program rating) is below:

SpeakersPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
EV Live X ELX112$300500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
Yamaha C112V$350350wCrown XLS 1000$299350w
JBL PRX412M$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
Peavey SSE 12$530500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV Tour X TX1122$7301000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
EV ZX3$9001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AC2212$1,024500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV EVF-1122S$1,1921000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
JBL AE AM5212$1,520600wQSC GX5$400700w
RCF TT22$2,049800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV EVF-1122D$2,0811200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AM7212$2,4001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
SubsPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
Yamaha CW115V$400500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV ELX118$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV ZX1-Sub$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
Yamaha CW118V$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
EV TX1181$7501000wQSC GX7$6001000w
JBL PRX418S$7501600wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
RCF S8018$1,2002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
EV EVF-1181S$1,500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
JBL AL7115$1,5002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
JBL ASB6115$1,5001600wPeavey IPR 5000   $7001510w
JBL ASB6118$2,0002400wCrown I-T5000 HD$6,0002500w
JBL ASB7118$3,0004000wCrown MA-9000i$5,7003500w
System ProcessorsPrice Range
dbx DriveRack PA$250-$400
Peavey VSX 26$450
dbx DriveRack PA+$319-$500
TC Electronic XO24$799
dbx DriveRack 260$600-$1000

Any other suggestions? Anything in the list you'd recommend against?
Hi Jason.  You've done some research, but many options on your list aren't better than what you already have, and a few are MUCH worse.  I agree that it's doubtful you'll be able to be confident that anything you buy today will be the right fit for a hypothetical building at some point in the future.  If you really have a problem that different speakers can solve, I'd suggest getting something right for your current situation, and not worry about a future situation. 

What is that problem by the way? I don't think you've said.  Why passive?  If only so that you could potentially re-use them in a permanent install, I'd skip this.  It's significantly more difficult to make a passive system sound good (especially a cheap one) compared to an active system where the manufacturer has already done a lot of the box tuning and alignment.

Is $3000 for each speaker, or for a pair plus an amp?  If $3000 total, you're probably already toast.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »


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