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[Brian Elstro]

I've recently begun recording my live mixes at my house gig to promo both my mixes, and possibly sooner or later release a live cd for the venue. I'm trying to get the best sound I can get from the get-go (and really just learning stereo-micing teqniques). First about the setup: FOH is set at the left of the venue, about 25' back, the stereo mic setup is in the middle, about 20' back, but up on a shelf (approx the size of a projector) located near the ceiling (the ceiling drops close to 20" down from another dropped ceiling that drops close to 28" at the front lip of the stage. Mic height is close to 10' from the floor, approx 10" from the ceiling (none of the dropped ceilings have any insulation or dampening). The venue width is 15' wide and approx 70' deep. I've been using a setup for the stereo mic's similar to an XY configuration, probably more like a coincident pair (elements are side by side instead of on top of each other), spacing has been from about 100 degrees to 90 degrees). The issue: there is a ton of phase based, and imaging issues, so much that I need to treat the recording by mixing it down to a mono track and then use the mono for LF, stereo for HF (seems to be helping and working somewhat well). On to the fun part......

Q#1- in order to stack the microphones elements properly in an XY configuration, I would need to angle the mic's slightly (where the body of the microphones arent paralell on the same plane), doesnt this affect the phase relationship of the microphones, and would therefore cause more issues with the recording?

Q#2- changing the spacing angle of the mic's of course reduces their ability to reproduce the stereo field, but being this far back in that narrow of a venue it would reduce the amount of reflected sound the mic's pickup. Better to narrow spacing, or move toward the stage (for reducing audience bleed and such)?

Q#3- I'm planning on moving the mics underneath the shelf that they are located on (by mounting a flange underneath it), presuming the reflections are my main issue, do you think it would help my issue?

I guess I should say the mic's are Be#@er C-2 "matched pair" also..... dont sound too bad, but I dont want to take my Oktava's out there either (smoky bar issues). Let me know what you think, thanks for any input!

[Geoff Doane]

I guess I should say the mic's are Be#@er C-2 "matched pair" also..... dont sound too bad, but I dont want to take my Oktava's out there either (smoky bar issues). Let me know what you think, thanks for any input!

Whether or not the mic are "matched" is probably the least of your issues, IMHO.

Are you trying to do the entire recording with just the pair of mics, or are you using them to augment the mics that are already on the stage and feeding the PA?

At my day job we do a lot of live recordings, and for concerts where there is a PA, we try to get the audience microphones as coincident with the PA as possible, not each other.  I know this isn't intuitive, but it does work.  It works even better with shotguns, although I've used cardioids as well with good results.  Of course, they are mixed in with direct mics, but when both are up in the mix, this helps to remove the very objectionable time delay between the two sources.

It's best if you're tracking everything, and can mix it later, bringing the audience mics in at an appropriate level. Although with a little trial and error, I've had good results sticking a stereo comp on the audience mics and just mixing them in with the live PA feed, and going direct to 2-track.

GTD

[Brian Elstro]

Whether or not the mic are "matched" is probably the least of your issues, IMHO.

Are you trying to do the entire recording with just the pair of mics, or are you using them to augment the mics that are already on the stage and feeding the PA?

At my day job we do a lot of live recordings, and for concerts where there is a PA, we try to get the audience microphones as coincident with the PA as possible, not each other.  I know this isn't intuitive, but it does work.  It works even better with shotguns, although I've used cardioids as well with good results.  Of course, they are mixed in with direct mics, but when both are up in the mix, this helps to remove the very objectionable time delay between the two sources.

It's best if you're tracking everything, and can mix it later, bringing the audience mics in at an appropriate level. Although with a little trial and error, I've had good results sticking a stereo comp on the audience mics and just mixing them in with the live PA feed, and going direct to 2-track.

GTD

Yes, they are used for the entire recording. I hadn't understood that there is a requred bass boost until after recording the first time. Budget constraints are keeping this to a 2 trk minimum (wish I had more).

[Tim Perry]

I've recently begun recording my live mixes at my house gig to promo both my mixes, and possibly sooner or later release a live cd for the venue. I'm trying to get the best sound I can get from the get-go (and really just learning stereo-micing teqniques). First about the setup: FOH is set at the left of the venue, about 25' back, the stereo mic setup is in the middle, about 20' back, but up on a shelf (approx the size of a projector) located near the ceiling (the ceiling drops close to 20" down from another dropped ceiling that drops close to 28" at the front lip of the stage. Mic height is close to 10' from the floor, approx 10" from the ceiling (none of the dropped ceilings have any insulation or dampening). The venue width is 15' wide and approx 70' deep. I've been using a setup for the stereo mic's similar to an XY configuration, probably more like a coincident pair (elements are side by side instead of on top of each other), spacing has been from about 100 degrees to 90 degrees). The issue: there is a ton of phase based, and imaging issues, so much that I need to treat the recording by mixing it down to a mono track and then use the mono for LF, stereo for HF (seems to be helping and working somewhat well). On to the fun part......

Q#1- in order to stack the microphones elements properly in an XY configuration, I would need to angle the mic's slightly (where the body of the microphones arent paralell on the same plane), doesnt this affect the phase relationship of the microphones, and would therefore cause more issues with the recording?

If you put on headphones and listen while you adjust the angle you will find it usually doesn't matter all that much.

Q#2- changing the spacing angle of the mic's of course reduces their ability to reproduce the stereo field, but being this far back in that narrow of a venue it would reduce the amount of reflected sound the mic's pickup. Better to narrow spacing, or move toward the stage (for reducing audience bleed and such)?

Move toward the stage... like within 3 feet of the mains positioned to blend in with the stage volume.

Q#3- I'm planning on moving the mics underneath the shelf that they are located on (by mounting a flange underneath it), presuming the reflections are my main issue, do you think it would help my issue?

When recording from FOH position mics on the tallest stand you can obtain and about 1 foot from the ceiling if possible (assuming you are not under a ceiling fan). The first rule of live recording is that wherever you put the mic people will gather under it and scream at each other over the band sound.

I guess I should say the mic's are Be#@er C-2 "matched pair" also..... dont sound too bad, but I dont want to take my Oktava's out there either (smoky bar issues). Let me know what you think, thanks for any input!

stay out of smokey bars... it's bad for your health

[Jeff Robinson]

I've recently begun recording my live mixes at my house gig to promo both my mixes, and possibly sooner or later release a live cd for the venue. I'm trying to get the best sound I can get from the get-go (and really just learning stereo-micing teqniques). First about the setup: FOH is set at the left of the venue, about 25' back, the stereo mic setup is in the middle, about 20' back, but up on a shelf (approx the size of a projector) located near the ceiling (the ceiling drops close to 20" down from another dropped ceiling that drops close to 28" at the front lip of the stage. Mic height is close to 10' from the floor, approx 10" from the ceiling (none of the dropped ceilings have any insulation or dampening). The venue width is 15' wide and approx 70' deep. I've been using a setup for the stereo mic's similar to an XY configuration, probably more like a coincident pair (elements are side by side instead of on top of each other), spacing has been from about 100 degrees to 90 degrees). The issue: there is a ton of phase based, and imaging issues, so much that I need to treat the recording by mixing it down to a mono track and then use the mono for LF, stereo for HF (seems to be helping and working somewhat well). On to the fun part......

Q#1- in order to stack the microphones elements properly in an XY configuration, I would need to angle the mic's slightly (where the body of the microphones arent paralell on the same plane), doesnt this affect the phase relationship of the microphones, and would therefore cause more issues with the recording?

Q#2- changing the spacing angle of the mic's of course reduces their ability to reproduce the stereo field, but being this far back in that narrow of a venue it would reduce the amount of reflected sound the mic's pickup. Better to narrow spacing, or move toward the stage (for reducing audience bleed and such)?

Q#3- I'm planning on moving the mics underneath the shelf that they are located on (by mounting a flange underneath it), presuming the reflections are my main issue, do you think it would help my issue?

I guess I should say the mic's are Be#@er C-2 "matched pair" also..... dont sound too bad, but I dont want to take my Oktava's out there either (smoky bar issues). Let me know what you think, thanks for any input!

Actually, the closer you are to the reflective boundary, the higher in frequency you move the null/flanging (multiple path cancellation effects). When the mics are within an inch of the boundary is when you are least likely to hear it. Play with the angle, don't be afraid to try pointing at the ceiling at an angle that (if the ceiling was a mirror) looks at the stage/sound source. Keep them in front of the shelf, you might want to put sound absorbing material on the upper surface of the shelf. (Cavities have nasty resonances.)

Anyone remember the mic mouse EV sold? (A half cylinder of open cell foam with a hollowed out channel to hold a mic parallel to and under an inch off the floor.)

Jeff Robinson

[Brian Elstro]

Actually, the closer you are to the reflective boundary, the higher in frequency you move the null/flanging (multiple path cancellation effects). When the mics are within an inch of the boundary is when you are least likely to hear it. Play with the angle, don't be afraid to try pointing at the ceiling at an angle that (if the ceiling was a mirror) looks at the stage/sound source. Keep them in front of the shelf, you might want to put sound absorbing material on the upper surface of the shelf. (Cavities have nasty resonances.)

Anyone remember the mic mouse EV sold? (A half cylinder of open cell foam with a hollowed out channel to hold a mic parallel to and under an inch off the floor.)

Jeff Robinson

I actually just went through my library of old mags, and found a mic that EV made that looked like a mouse..... kindof....lol.

Yeah, cavity resonsances were on my mind, but I was more worried about rear reflections from the drop. I added a drawing to make things a bit more clear so as not to confuse anyone (I'm not sure everyone understood where the shelf was located).

Also, after checking the dimensions the total ceiling height is 15', first drop is close to 30", the second is close to 20", for a height above FOH around 12'. Any more suggestions would be appreciated!

[Steve Kennedy-Williams]

Check out the Stereophonic Zoom paper.

http://www.rycote.com/images/uploads/The_Stereophonic_Zoom.pdf

It's useful in figuring out how mic spacing, and angle change the stereo image of the recording.

An interactive webpage that uses these concepts is at, by dragging the rear of the mic pattern you change the distance between mics, and by dragging the front, you change their angle. Notice how wide the stereo picture is for XY. If you look at the top between the speakers, you will see how this translates to a narrow stereo picture. This is why it's better suited for close micing than distance micing.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

[Brian Elstro]

Check out the Stereophonic Zoom paper.

http://www.rycote.com/images/uploads/The_Stereophonic_Zoom.pdf

It's useful in figuring out how mic spacing, and angle change the stereo image of the recording.

An interactive webpage that uses these concepts is at, by dragging the rear of the mic pattern you change the distance between mics, and by dragging the front, you change their angle. Notice how wide the stereo picture is for XY. If you look at the top between the speakers, you will see how this translates to a narrow stereo picture. This is why it's better suited for close micing than distance micing.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Thanks for the links, that is exactly what I wanted to be able to see. Its very suprising to see how counter-intuitive it really is. I ended up using a standard ORTF array and it worked perfectly. Can't say how helpful this link was.... should be a sticky somewhere.

I'll post a result sometime soon. Thanks again!

[Steve Kennedy-Williams]

Thanks for the links, that is exactly what I wanted to be able to see. Its very suprising to see how counter-intuitive it really is. I ended up using a standard ORTF array and it worked perfectly. Can't say how helpful this link was.... should be a sticky somewhere.

I'll post a result sometime soon. Thanks again!

You're welcome, I've printed and laminated the charts for subcardioid and cardioid mics, keeping them in my gear bag. There is also an iPod app, Stereo Mic Tools.

[Jerome Malsack]

The other question on the C-2 mic is a rolloff switch.  You might want to make sure it is set to the flat setting and not rolloff. 

Also remove the hi pass filter on the channel strip to allow more base into the mix.   

I have taken some of the simple egg crate foam from packing and created a slice in an x to allow the two mics to sit in the slice and stay put in my ortf form this keeps me around the 1 inch. 

I also have used two AT 871 ug  mikes. 

If I am unsure on the project I use Middle Side with AT2020 and AT 2050. 

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