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Author Topic: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments  (Read 23990 times)

Stefan Maerz

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 11:58:22 am »


#2

Lots of devices, especially tablets that we use to manage the sound gear expect to find the Internet on the other side of a networks gateway.  Since only the largest fixed installations may need a gateway you should always leave your gateway blank or 0.0.0.0 - This goes for when setting up the DHCP on the network, most routers will put the interface IP (the IP assigned to the LAN port on the device) in the gateway field.  You should delete or use 0.0.0.0

The other good thing about rule #2 is you can turn on your Cellular connection on your tablet and get to the Internet and your console.  Fear no security because your device can't forward a packet between interfaces (just trust me on this one)

If you know a sound guy who is a network geek during the day ask them for help.  They will fall over backwards (at least I will) to help a seasoned pro and possibly learn something from them.
Aside from isolating your audio gear from the internet, what is the advantage of this? (Perhaps I am missing it) legitimate question -- I have network printers who ask for a gateway, I've never understood why -- so I end up plugging it in even though it works without it.

I also agree with the subnet point. If you have more than 254 networked devices you should probably have someone who knows what they are doing for reasons beyond address space. Following these instructions will make your life easier.

Along those lines sometimes the subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 is referee to as /24 in what is known as CIDR notation, though I can't say I've seen CIDR pop up in home/small audio networking.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 05:03:00 pm »

Aside from isolating your audio gear from the internet, what is the advantage of this? (Perhaps I am missing it) legitimate question -- I have network printers who ask for a gateway, I've never understood why -- so I end up plugging it in even though it works without it.

I also agree with the subnet point. If you have more than 254 networked devices you should probably have someone who knows what they are doing for reasons beyond address space. Following these instructions will make your life easier.

Along those lines sometimes the subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 is referee to as /24 in what is known as CIDR notation, though I can't say I've seen CIDR pop up in home/small audio networking.

1 -  You can't have two gateways so if you populate the gateway in a closed system you can't have Internet on another interface
2 - I would not even bring up CIDR notation, then you have to explain why 255^8+255^8+255^8=24

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Kieran Walsh

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2014, 08:23:45 pm »

1 -  You can't have two gateways so if you populate the gateway in a closed system you can't have Internet on another interface
2 - I would not even bring up CIDR notation, then you have to explain why 255^8+255^8+255^8=24

First let me state that functionally a lot of what has been said so far is sound advice in terms of the world "today"

I do feel its important to put the pedants hat on... As often times people reference something as the gospel out of context and confusion occurs. You can have more than one gateway - this is very important when constructing a scalable internetwork. You likely do not NEED to have multiple gateways in most deployed audio networks today... but that is a long way from the existence or not thereof.

I totally Agree - if you know what CIDR notation is... good for you... I hope you understand it and VLSM... if you don't know what these terms are and what there significance is then you probably have more interesting things to do with your time ;) A full discussion on subnetting is best done elsewhere.

a machine does not expect to see "the Internet" the other side of a router. The machine hopes that packets that are not delivered within the LAN will reach their destination IP address by going through the (or a) gateway to their destination... whether they do this or not is purely down to whether an internet exists (note the deliberate difference in the capital and lowercase i)
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2014, 09:00:52 pm »

First let me state that functionally a lot of what has been said so far is sound advice in terms of the world "today"

I do feel its important to put the pedants hat on... As often times people reference something as the gospel out of context and confusion occurs. You can have more than one gateway - this is very important when constructing a scalable internetwork. You likely do not NEED to have multiple gateways in most deployed audio networks today... but that is a long way from the existence or not thereof.

I totally Agree - if you know what CIDR notation is... good for you... I hope you understand it and VLSM... if you don't know what these terms are and what there significance is then you probably have more interesting things to do with your time ;) A full discussion on subnetting is best done elsewhere.

a machine does not expect to see "the Internet" the other side of a router. The machine hopes that packets that are not delivered within the LAN will reach their destination IP address by going through the (or a) gateway to their destination... whether they do this or not is purely down to whether an internet exists (note the deliberate difference in the capital and lowercase i)

Kieren - It's important to be specific, it's not a gateway it's a default gateway of last resort for the 0.0.0.0/0 network.  If you have two interfaces, such as a 4G and a wifi on a tablet and you put a default gateway on both interfaces at the least Internet connectivity will "flap" between the two equally costed routes.  At the worst the OS will think one connection is unstable and go in search of another.  Then you lose you network in the middle of show.  If running a headless mixer like a Behringer x32 core or rack or a Mackie DL-1608 all of a sudden you have no control over your system.  If feedback starts it could turn ugly really fast.

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Kieran Walsh

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 02:03:07 am »

Kieren - It's important to be specific, it's not a gateway it's a default gateway of last resort for the 0.0.0.0/0 network.  If you have two interfaces, such as a 4G and a wifi on a tablet and you put a default gateway on both interfaces at the least Internet connectivity will "flap" between the two equally costed routes.  At the worst the OS will think one connection is unstable and go in search of another.  Then you lose you network in the middle of show.  If running a headless mixer like a Behringer x32 core or rack or a Mackie DL-1608 all of a sudden you have no control over your system.  If feedback starts it could turn ugly really fast.

Scott - the phrase used originally was gateway. The statement was therefore factually incorrect. The application you describe where there is a simple network and we are considering a gateway of last resort is indeed probably the most common (and probably only) scenario that most Pro-Audio users will encounter.

I do however spend a lot of time dealing with misconceptions held by IT managers that have been started by well intentioned AV people using terms that they have seen which have had terminology adapted for the application.

I apologise I have made it seem necessary to elaborate on further examples. As I said before a lot of things said here - including your previous comments form great practical advice for a specific situation/use case. I am merely stating that using terms as they are described "in general" ie outside of the specific use case is very risky without realising that the scope has been narrowed deliberately to provide a solution. To this end your example of a node "flapping" between gateways is just one possible (albeit common) operating mode. To be fair you did use the term "headless" but I picked up on it... the distinction may be subtle to others.

I mention this because should someone go tell an IT manager in an enterprise scenario that "you cant have two gateways because the nodes will flap between them" the urge to restrict and even remove that user from essential resources grows in the mind of the IT guys... this is a shame, and happens all too often. There are many examples of over complex methodologies being used due to certain published use cases that arguably have done more harm than good in the long-run, as they describe a specific workaround rather than a "perfect world" operating scenario.

Its a really good conversation to have, and am on the side of putting all of these things "out in the wild" so to speak, as a large discussion ultimately gives the greatest number of possible workarounds and solutions (which are things that we all need practically). The "perfect world" where everybody knows everything about everything is obviously not practical - so my best final thought for this post would be... yep thats right... you really don't want me to mix your band! but maybe I might fix your network well ;)
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Tom Burgess

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 12:28:39 pm »

My brain hurts.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2014, 01:55:32 pm »

My brain hurts.

That's what I was trying to avoid, the take away here is if you don't populate the gateway field in your device or in the DHCP scope then you will never have an issue of two default gateways.  It's that simple.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Tom Burgess

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2014, 03:04:14 pm »

That's what I was trying to avoid, the take away here is if you don't populate the gateway field in your device or in the DHCP scope then you will never have an issue of two default gateways.  It's that simple.
OK, I was actually just being a smartass about the brain thing... or maybe I was channeling an old Monty Python skit, hmmmm.   :o

It's been several years since I've had much to do with IT on a regular basis but I was actually able to follow enough of the commentary here to glean some excellent information.  Thanks to all for the great info!  :) 
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If the band sounds great, it's because the band IS great, if the band sound like crap, it's the soundman's fault.

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Scott Helmke

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2014, 07:02:37 pm »

The question of "gateway" is a very weird one in the context of networked audio device control. Recent Yamaha mixers (M7CL and later) have a setting for gateway IP address, and you do have to put in something in the same subnet. But what the heck is it for? It's not like an LS9 is going onto the Internet to download its own firmware updates.

And beyond that, you really can't use the Yamaha control software (Studio Manager, CL Editor, etc) across subnets anyways because they use a protocol that also needs MAC address. I've got a kickass little L-Com wireless access point / router at work that we can't use for remote mixing because there are no "local" hardware ports. I've been able to tweak things enough to mostly control a Meyer Galileo... but that's beyond anything we could expect a show tech or rental customer to set up in the field.
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Josh Millward

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Re: TCP/IP networking primer - Please Read and Add Questions and Comments
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2014, 07:16:39 pm »

The question of "gateway" is a very weird one in the context of networked audio device control.
I guess I don't think it is that weird. There are plenty of devices out there that can use the default gateway to reach out to something elsewhere on the network. Working from my personal knowledge of the MediaMatrix NIONs I deal with daily, if you have them connected to a larger network that is accessed through a router, you can keep the NION's multicast traffic between themselves down within the context of your larger network. IT guys seemingly hate multicast traffic because it is too easily abused, so they like to filter and block it when they can. However, I can still use a tablet to bring up a user control screen through the web interface since there is a WiFi access point on the network and using the router on the network I can still access the NIONs and manipulate the system remotely. Likewise, the NIONs can also send control information to other devices on other parts of the network that are on the other side of the router if you give them the default gateway.

Recent Yamaha mixers (M7CL and later) have a setting for gateway IP address, and you do have to put in something in the same subnet. But what the heck is it for? It's not like an LS9 is going onto the Internet to download its own firmware updates.
It is just a part of the standard network stack. I'm glad to see that Yamaha has thought far enough ahead to include it. It should be in there because it is part of the IP communications protocol. Your device needs to know where to send requests when it doesn't already know where to send them. Whether your device needs that ability is another question altogether. With the NION platform you can just leave the field blank if you do not have a router on the network for it to communicate with.
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Josh Millward
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