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Author Topic: Drum mics in plexiglass shield  (Read 3110 times)

dick rees

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 10:12:20 am »

Unfortunately you are trying to fix the problem that is caused by another problem that is caused by the the original problem.
The drums are being played to loud.
I attended a seminar on micing drums given by two professional drummers and a professional producer.  The guy sitting at the kit said "If you need a shield, take that money and spend it on lessons for your drummer." The other two agreed.   It may take training, it may take IEMs, but drums can be played at any number of volumes. 

BTW We are a 200 person church in a room that will hold 270  We have a full drum kit with mics and the drums are not so loud that they control the mix.

Frank

We all rush to address the problem the way it's stated.  But when you get right down to it, this is really the gist of the matter.

Well said, Frank.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 11:02:15 am »

The drummer can play at a reasonable volume provided they can clearly hear the drum kit. I know because during our christmas service she played with no shield and the volume level was perfectly fine (although very little reinforcement was needed on the drums).

But the headphones she's using as IEMs block out the sound of the drums. So then we have to put drums in her ears. But if the drums aren't loud enough in her ears she's going to play loud. This is why I started that thread a little while back on open-ear monitors, wondering if they would work well in our case.

The only other problem is that I believe the back wall of the stage is reflecting a lot of the sound of the drums and guitar amps. Because the acoustic volume of the drums and the guitar amps is actually louder in the back of the room than it is in the front row.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 11:09:08 am »

Since changing the drummer and the way he/she plays is sometimes a fruitless endeavor, changing out the gongs on the stands for some nice thin quieter cymbals will be a major help. Getting some sound proofing material and coating as much of the plexiglass shield as possible will help as well.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 11:48:55 am »

The drummer can play at a reasonable volume provided they can clearly hear the drum kit. I know because during our christmas service she played with no shield and the volume level was perfectly fine (although very little reinforcement was needed on the drums).

But the headphones she's using as IEMs block out the sound of the drums. So then we have to put drums in her ears. But if the drums aren't loud enough in her ears she's going to play loud. This is why I started that thread a little while back on open-ear monitors, wondering if they would work well in our case.

The only other problem is that I believe the back wall of the stage is reflecting a lot of the sound of the drums and guitar amps. Because the acoustic volume of the drums and the guitar amps is actually louder in the back of the room than it is in the front row.

Jason, this is great news.  You have a good drummer,  It is easier to fix tech problems then people / skill problems.

The best fix would be to get her IEM with her own personal mixer (Control surface)  I understand that this is easy to say and hard to do.   Some other thoughts.  Do you have a extra aux that you could use just for here earphone mix? 

Another possibility would be to get one of the little "more of me" devices such as the Rolls PM 55.  Set up a microphone on a boom and place it near the drummers left ear.  This lets her hear what she would hear if playing alone.  It has been recommended as a good one mic or two mic location for micing the whole kit.

Re the back wall,  I get that.  We had to move our entire worship team and place the drum kit in front of the team in order to get away from a stone wall.

BTW  When we went to IEMs and personal mixers for everyone, our stage volume went down automatically INCLUDING the drums  I was surprised but they were playing louder to hear them selves.   We had no amps on stage for a long time and used emulators.  Now we allow amps in a separate back room and mic the amps.  This mic channel is fed to the guitar player by his IEM mixer.  They seem to like it.

It sounds like your church is really crying for full IEMs with personal mixers. 
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Nick Simon

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 11:53:50 am »

cymbal bleed is what always gives me fits....
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 11:58:46 am »

Jason, this is great news.  You have a good drummer,  It is easier to fix tech problems then people / skill problems.

The best fix would be to get her IEM with her own personal mixer (Control surface)  I understand that this is easy to say and hard to do.   Some other thoughts.  Do you have a extra aux that you could use just for here earphone mix? 

Another possibility would be to get one of the little "more of me" devices such as the Rolls PM 55.  Set up a microphone on a boom and place it near the drummers left ear.  This lets her hear what she would hear if playing alone.  It has been recommended as a good one mic or two mic location for micing the whole kit.

Re the back wall,  I get that.  We had to move our entire worship team and place the drum kit in front of the team in order to get away from a stone wall.

BTW  When we went to IEMs and personal mixers for everyone, our stage volume went down automatically INCLUDING the drums  I was surprised but they were playing louder to hear them selves.   We had no amps on stage for a long time and used emulators.  Now we allow amps in a separate back room and mic the amps.  This mic channel is fed to the guitar player by his IEM mixer.  They seem to like it.

It sounds like your church is really crying for full IEMs with personal mixers.

They really are.

The drummer right now has her own AUX from FOH, although she can't control it at all. So we just set the levels according to what she asks for. I think she needs the drums louder in her ears though than she has them now (hopefully not much), especially the cymbals and snare, because those are still too loud.

It may be that we have to ditch the shield first, figure out mic placement and get the right gate and EQ settings before her mix will work and she'll be able to play quieter.
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dick rees

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2013, 12:19:20 pm »

They really are.

The drummer right now has her own AUX from FOH, although she can't control it at all. So we just set the levels according to what she asks for. I think she needs the drums louder in her ears though than she has them now (hopefully not much), especially the cymbals and snare, because those are still too loud.

It may be that we have to ditch the shield first, figure out mic placement and get the right gate and EQ settings before her mix will work and she'll be able to play quieter.

What does she want/need in her aux mix?  Do you have the time outside of actual performance to work on her monitor situation?

There are lots of variations in monitor setups.  It would seem that she can play at a reasonable volume without headphones or IEM.  If she needs vocals, it might work to give her "vocal only" monitoring from some small monitors which could be mounted at her ear level, something like a HotSpot or a powered near-field monitor (or monitors) which could be mounted on mic stands.

Positioning the guitar amps to fire across the stage will help the sound out front and taking that into consideration can also help in the on-stage monitoring, alleviating the need for her to have any guitar in the monitors and thereby simplifying her monitor mix.

So it would help to know what she needs to hear.  I agree with Frank that  personal control of her monitor content/level might be very nice.  It's amazing what you can do with a $75 sub-mixer. 
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2013, 12:56:28 pm »

What does she want/need in her aux mix?  Do you have the time outside of actual performance to work on her monitor situation?

There are lots of variations in monitor setups.  It would seem that she can play at a reasonable volume without headphones or IEM.  If she needs vocals, it might work to give her "vocal only" monitoring from some small monitors which could be mounted at her ear level, something like a HotSpot or a powered near-field monitor (or monitors) which could be mounted on mic stands.

Positioning the guitar amps to fire across the stage will help the sound out front and taking that into consideration can also help in the on-stage monitoring, alleviating the need for her to have any guitar in the monitors and thereby simplifying her monitor mix.

So it would help to know what she needs to hear.  I agree with Frank that  personal control of her monitor content/level might be very nice.  It's amazing what you can do with a $75 sub-mixer.

Well, currently her mix has the drums, the lead vocals, the guitars and the piano. This is per her request. She can't hear the guitar amps in her cage with her headphones on. Even though, right now, the guitar amps actually are firing across the stage.

Next week we'll be going down to the local pro audio shop to look at integrating a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 mixer to provide personal monitoring for everyone on stage. More than half the band has iPhones already and a used iPod Touch is pretty cheap nowadays.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 01:00:25 pm by Jason Lucas »
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 03:42:56 pm »

Well, currently her mix has the drums, the lead vocals, the guitars and the piano. This is per her request. She can't hear the guitar amps in her cage with her headphones on. Even though, right now, the guitar amps actually are firing across the stage.

Next week we'll be going down to the local pro audio shop to look at integrating a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 mixer to provide personal monitoring for everyone on stage. More than half the band has iPhones already and a used iPod Touch is pretty cheap nowadays.

Interesting,  Will you be using the StudioLive as a head to drive IEMs and there mixes or also use it as your FOH board?

I note that the SL has 10 auxes  Does this give 10 independent mixes or are they 5 stereo auxes?  If 5, is that enough different mixes for your Worship team?  I assume it also needs a computer and a wireless router?

10 IEM mixes for $3K plus i-touch and phones ETC seems like a good deal.  5, I would go in a different direction.  I am asking because I know very little about the StudioLive, not because I think it is a good or bad idea.  Just education.

 
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 03:45:40 pm »

Interesting,  Will you be using the StudioLive as a head to drive IEMs and there mixes or also use it as your FOH board?

I note that the SL has 10 auxes  Does this give 10 independent mixes or are they 5 stereo auxes?  If 5, is that enough different mixes for your Worship team?  I assume it also needs a computer and a wireless router?

10 IEM mixes for $3K plus i-touch and phones ETC seems like a good deal.  5, I would go in a different direction.  I am asking because I know very little about the StudioLive, not because I think it is a good or bad idea.  Just education.

They can be configured as 10 mono or 5 stereo. We'll be using 10 mono. I understand stereo is nicer, but we've used mono for years now and it's perfectly fine, especially if you have a good quality signal.

We would be using the SL as a head to drive IEMs and their mixes, as you said, and continue to use the Roland for FOH. It'll be less than $4k altogether including headphone amps.
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