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Author Topic: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio  (Read 2318 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 01:57:58 pm »

I regularly run into places using crossover-du-jour to run Vertecs. It always sounds like crap. People always think they can "do better".

OUCH.

I've heard the glorious results of misspent system arrogance.  You're right, it sucks.
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Dave Bigelow

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 04:47:42 pm »

Well there's your answer. Soundbridge is crap, and so is Vertec when not used with iTech's.


I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.

After that, the budget for PA is typically lower for these events compared to more mainstream music. This invites the anklebiters with their half-assed rigs to come out and play.

You said your self that Muse and Dave Matthews sounded fine. They had a bigger budget for PA. And they have more give-a-shit than any rap act I've ever worked with too.

I would imagine that they used all the low-end that was available to them at the time. They were not willing to compromise sound quality for volume. That's a good thing.

That was my thinking too, stop listening to shitty music.

I worked a Muse show once back in 2004, even in a 1000 seat room they brought everything. At the time that was a PM5D and VerTec rig. From what I've read they were back to an XL4 for a while, no idea what they carry now.
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JoeHenson

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2013, 03:48:21 pm »

Call me crazy George, but what if that's the rig the sound provider for these shows owned?  I don't know about you, but i'm in this business to MAKE MONEY and i'm not going to turn that gig down because all I've got is a line array instead an 850 rig.  Go buy a half a million dollars in PA and then turn down a gig because you don't think you've got the "proper" gear for the application.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 03:51:15 pm by JoeHenson »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2013, 11:05:44 pm »

Call me crazy George, but what if that's the rig the sound provider for these shows owned?  I don't know about you, but i'm in this business to MAKE MONEY and i'm not going to turn that gig down because all I've got is a line array instead an 850 rig.  Go buy a half a million dollars in PA and then turn down a gig because you don't think you've got the "proper" gear for the application.

Would it be less confusion to call you Joe, instead of Crazy George?

My experience has been that most "system" issues perceived by the public are actually mixing issues.  Unless a portion of the audience area is out of the coverage, most punters only know if they liked the show or not.

Production providers go out of business if they don't give customers what they want.  If a client wants a line array, even if it's the wrong rig, the client will probably get a line array, and if not from me or you, Joe, they'll get it from one of our competitors.

We had to up our conventional trap box rig game after buying our VerTec just so we'd have a better option to offer clients who really, really shouldn't  be using a vertical array.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 11:15:22 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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JoeHenson

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 11:19:08 pm »

Good one, Tim  ;D
The point I was wanting to make to our friend is that we never know the scenario of how things went down and what the sound provider has available in their inventory.  I've still got an 850 rig as well as a VerTec rig.  I'm not saying that a line array is the answer 100% of the time; It just drives me crazy when people come on here to bash scenarios they dont have all the answer for
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2013, 11:39:40 pm »

Every scenerio calls for a seperate solution, either using the gear you own, or the gear you rent. Tim is 100% spot on. The customer may not always be right, but they're never wrong.

I would suggest that if the OP is tired of hearing poorly deployed Vertecs in Ohio, that he listen to some in another state. Kansas might be a good start.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:55:47 pm by Bob Leonard »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2013, 04:14:33 am »

Every scenerio calls for a seperate solution, either using the gear you own, or the gear you rent. Tim is 100% spot on. The customer may not always be right, but they're never wrong.

I would suggest that if the OP is tired of hearing poorly deployed Vertecs in Ohio, that he listen to some in another state. Kansas maight be a good start.

It's neither rocket surgery or brain science to make a VerTec rig sound good, but it's easy to compromise its performance, too.  We usually get a good report card on our rigs, and the big secret (ssssh.... ) is this: 

Mostly we use LAC1, do an auto prediction or 2, and put it up the way JBL says to.  That's it.  LAC 1... the Excel spreadsheet-based tool.  Okay, I do a couple of Super Secret System Guy® things (anybody who reads Bob McCarthy's book can do them) too.  But it's very fast to use for "auto" predictions to see which combinations of trim height, number of elements and splay angels give what types of coverage results.  Most of the time this yields a very useable result and if I'm walking into a venue and need PA configurations in the time it takes to dump the truck, this will do.  I hear some providers don't bother themselves with this step. :(

With more time, additional performance, consistency of tonality, and evenness of SPL can be achieved by modeling the array with LAC2.

The second most important thing a VerTec owner or system engineer can do is go to JBL and take the class with Paul Bauman.  The 3rd day covers system optimization and design choices, and it's like drinking from a fire hose.  The most important?  Care about what things sound like.
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When they spit, do you wash their floors
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2013, 04:49:37 am »

That's the whole deal Tim. Lazy people, or people who don't care, or people who can't be bothered, will take the easy route. That route will be based on a quick visual assesment and a quick sound check. Anyone can make any system sound bad, and it doesn't matter whose array it is either. Owning or installing a rig is only a part of the picture, the canvas for the painting. The challange is always putting on the paint.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2013, 07:48:59 am »

That's the whole deal Tim. Lazy people, or people who don't care, or people who can't be bothered, will take the easy route. That route will be based on a quick visual assesment and a quick sound check. Anyone can make any system sound bad, and it doesn't matter whose array it is either. Owning or installing a rig is only a part of the picture, the canvas for the painting. The challange is always putting on the paint.
I have "fixed" many of our installs that were "bad sounding"-simply by going to the console and hitting bypass on all the channel eq's. :)

People will "whack away" until they have dug a huge hole-thrown themselves AND the sound system into it-and cannot find a way out.  So they blame the sound system.

How about just going to "zero" and starting over?

Don't blame Chevy if you don't know how to drive and wrap the car around a tree.
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Getting pretty sick of poorly deployed line arrays being the norm in Ohio
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 12:33:52 pm »

The EDM industry is so overwhelmingly focused on the gear that they suffer from this:

I would imagine that a large part of your problem is the music genre. EDM, Dubstep, Rap, and Hip Hop are the absolute worst offenders when it comes to overdriven DJ's, and mic-cupping MC's.


Of course their records sound better then their live-sound because the producer wouldn't let them leave the studio until he got what he wanted. (that and you probably can't "cup" a shockmounted Neumann with a pop-filter)

On the road the act thinks they know-it-all and don't bother with that same level of production to get their live sound where it belongs.

Instead, during advancing, they hassle you about what "speakerz" and LED walls you have at the club -and do have whatever flavor-du-jour of pioneer DJM they demand, -yet nothing about microphones or vocal monitors even though the act has live drums, guitars and a horn section!
When the act shows up at the club/event I shake hands with more "managers" and hangers-on then I can keep track of yet there isn't even an engineer or even a backline tech!  (it was almost criminal considering what these acts were charging the promotors)

I ran a large club for a few years and saw this cycle repeated over and over, felt bad for the guys I hired to run the boards those nights, but not bad-enough to want to help with the mix :-)
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Craig Hauber
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