Sounds reasonable. Have you tried delaying the system?
Just because of room geometry, the sound from the mains are already arriving at the listeners 7+ ms later than the sound from the sources on stage. (FOH is ~35' from the stage, speakers are ~25' in the air). How much more do you want them delayed?Also, I think it's generally a bad idea to tell someone to go mucking about with system delay when their OP says they've never even modified a system eq before.-Dan.
I couldn't care less what you think of the way I run a system and mix.
I'm not advocating realigning the drivers, just "moving" the mains behind the musicians. It's not rocket surgery. You dial in a delay enough to accomplish that and listen. Depending on the console, you can do it on the outputs or further downstream. If it improves things, keep it. If it doesn't, return it to how it was. It's not going to do any harm.
My question was (mostly) an honest one: how much more would you delay them?
As much as necessary to achieve the desired result. If the result is not achieved, then go back to square one.
Ok, how about this:In your experience, what's a ballpark estimate for the amount of total delay (natural delay from the speakers being farther away than the sources + dsp-added delay) required for this method to be effective?I've never heard of anyone doing this. And while I can kind of see where you're coming from, I'm curious to know how much you've found to be useful. -Dan.
Dan....In reverse order:I not only find it useful, I find it essential.I don't do it in the DSP, I use either console output delay or the delay in my Sabine GraphiQ's.I already gave the needed delay determinant: BEHIND the performers. How much behind is up to you. Given that delay becomes audible as an effect at around 11 milliseconds (I hear it start to become noticeable at around 8 milliseconds myself), a BALLPARK figure for this to work is no more than 11 milliseconds.HOWEVER, you have to do it by ear. Any numerical measurements given are in retrospect, having been derived from setting this up BY EAR over the course of some 40+ years of experience.
Sorry for the topic swerve. Dan wants to know about delay.
Ok, that's a start.One of the reasons I ask is that you've got people lurking around reading this, and without any hard figures (or even ballpark figures), they could go off and delay their systems by 10+x that and think they're doing it "right," because some guy on the internet said so.Another reason I ask is because we can see that the geometry of the room is already providing approximately that much delay. At FOH, it's about 7ms, but in the front row, it could be over 20ms. The farther you move back in the room, the less geometry-induced delay will be experienced, but at the same time, the stage wash will become lower in volume relative to the mains, so the trick will be less effective.IOW, I think we can abandon this as a possible solution.It's not off-topic to ask about (and explain) something put forward as a potential solution to the OP's problems.-Dan.
Dan....You've obviously made up your mind (without any direct experience with this technique) that what I've been doing successfully for decades is either wrong or will not work.
You've misunderstood even the simplest of explanations, some of them given several times.
The section in bold above is wrong on several accounts, not the least of which is your assertion that the original sound from the stage and the sound from the speakers fall off at different rates.
What you're looking for is to associate the source of the sound with the performers, not the speakers. If the sound appears to be coming from the speakers rather than the performers, delaying the speakers can help.
When you've tried it, then come back and talk to me. Until then you're just firing shots in the dark, my friend.
The only sound we get off the stage is of course the drums.
Its a larger band, often 1-2 keys, Sax or Violin, drums, sometimes a latin percussion set. 1 acoustic, 1 bass, 1 e-guitar and 4-6 vocals. Yes, I would appreciate a smaller group, but that's my opinion.
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