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Author Topic: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ  (Read 13760 times)

mark ahlenius

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System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« on: January 13, 2013, 12:29:16 AM »

Hi,

Sorry this is a bit long winded - but trying to explain our system and my questions about overall EQ.

In our church system, I've never really modified the "system level" EQ for our mains and wondering typically how this is done (like using TEF, or EASE, or ?)

We have a main cluster of 3 - Martin WT3's in a horizontal array - which are pretty nice speakers for an older design - that is my opinion but I am certainly out of date when it comes to the latest speaker designs.  These WT-3's are bi-amped and are fed by a Shure DFR-22 system DSP.  Among other things the DSP provides the crossover for the bi-amped speakers and the individual gains for low and high channels to each cabinet.  The sanctuary's acoustics are really decent, as it was designed for that purpose before any walls were raised.  We do have a pair of Martin WT-2's as side fills and a pair of Martin Subs as well under the stage.

Typically, all the EQ'ing we do is on the individual channel strips on a per-instrument or per-singer basis.   We've had this setup for about 7 years now.

One of our leaders told me they are thinking that we should do a speaker system upgrade because they don't feel that the sound we get (paraphrasing here) is very "intimate".  I respect their viewpoint, but frankly I think it sounds quite good.  I think the main issue is the mix but that's for another day.  But this person is the leader and am willing to work with them for sure.  I know they have been to several other venues with Meyer speakers  - which are great, but imho - they are very expensive.  It may have to do with speaker placement because places like Willow or others have vertical linear arrays which are also much closer to the audience than our center cluster is.

So what I am wondering is this - how often do the experts really modify the system level EQ - like what would be provided in a DSP for all audio going to the mains?  I think they would do that for avoiding or working around acoustical problems (nulls or peaks) in the natural acoustics of the room and/or speakers.  But are there modifications made to the EQ for improving the presence or (don't like this word) - intamacy of the sound?

thank you

'mark
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 01:48:31 PM »

What on earth does the leader mean by intimacy?  That word describes atmosphere, not audio.  As far as system EQ, I haven't actually done any, but avoiding/working around acoustical problems like you suggest is all I think I would use it for.  You are right to use the channel EQ on a per voice basis - that's why you have EQ on each channel.  The mix might be an issue, as could be the volume level, but really the only thing I could think of that would affect someone's view of how 'intimate' a church service is would be style and/or production.  I certainly don't think the atmosphere of your church service is going to be affected by system EQ. 
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 01:55:50 PM »

What on earth does the leader mean by intimacy?  That word describes atmosphere, not audio.  As far as system EQ, I haven't actually done any, but avoiding/working around acoustical problems like you suggest is all I think I would use it for.  You are right to use the channel EQ on a per voice basis - that's why you have EQ on each channel.  The mix might be an issue, as could be the volume level, but really the only thing I could think of that would affect someone's view of how 'intimate' a church service is would be style and/or production.  I certainly don't think the atmosphere of your church service is going to be affected by system EQ.

So you've posed the question:  What does "intimacy" mean in this context?

The first thing that comes to mind is the psycho-acoustic effect of having the original source precede the amplified source for the listeners.  I routinely delay the loudspeakers BEHIND the source for just that reason.  For me, hearing the sound system itself is far from "intimate" and I feel intensely uncomfortable.  By adding delay to the system, the listener will tend to identify the person speaking as the source rather than the "machinery" being used to amplify/distribute the speakers voice.

This is seemingly a small issue, but for me and possibly for the person desiring "intimacy", this can loom large.

DR 
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mark ahlenius

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 06:02:37 PM »

So you've posed the question:  What does "intimacy" mean in this context?

The first thing that comes to mind is the psycho-acoustic effect of having the original source precede the amplified source for the listeners.  I routinely delay the loudspeakers BEHIND the source for just that reason.  For me, hearing the sound system itself is far from "intimate" and I feel intensely uncomfortable.  By adding delay to the system, the listener will tend to identify the person speaking as the source rather than the "machinery" being used to amplify/distribute the speakers voice.

This is seemingly a small issue, but for me and possibly for the person desiring "intimacy", this can loom large.

DR

Hi,  yes I am still trying  to understand exactly what was meant.  What I have asked is that the next time they are going to some venue, church or whatever which has a "sound" that they like, it to invite me along so I can hear with my own ears the difference.  Sure could more expensive speakers sound better?  You bet, but at what cost?  I'm one of the guy's who installed this gear and know it pretty well. 

Personally I really think its the mix.   That said, I always am having problems mixing the guitars. The e-guitarists are always adding distortion which I am not a fan of.  In my head, I think added distortion tends to broaden the signal - so to speak, to the point where its hard for me to give the guitar sound its own place in the mix, vs. the vocals and other instruments.  One is always on top of the other (I digress).

Going back to their comments, is that when we ran sound for an all church event at this other venue (The Mac Center at College of Dupage) they had these two large banks of Meyer speakers on the left and right of the stage not that high above the stage.  So you were literally sitting quite close to the speakers (and it was loud). In that way, it felt close and perhaps intimate and more clear.   Our Martin's in our sanctuary are probably 25 feet up and down tilted to cover the worship space. So there's much greater acoustical distance, but we still do drive the speakers quite a bit.  We are not in distortion or anything like that.

I agree with what Dick said about this. 

One last comment I made to them was that a few weeks ago we had a guest singer with his own acoustic guitar, and 1 mike, plus drums do a special number.  I had to look back at the board because I have never heard this sound so clean and crisp.  I was amazed.  That's what drives me back to the mix issue.

BTW - what's the view on Martin WT-3's?  pretty decent (but older) boxes?

thank you all for your comments,

'mark
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Brad Weber

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 03:28:46 PM »

As to the general EQ issue, channel equalization affects just one source or input while system equalization affects all inputs and sources the same.  Does the issue apply to all sources or just to some?  If you simply playback a CD or use a single mic as direct as possible to the speaker system is the issue still present?
 
Smaart, SysTune, TEF, SIM, Praxis, etc. are all tools to help in system tuning and they can be extremely useful in capable hands.  However, while they can all help understand what is happening and perhaps why you hear what you hear, none of them can tell you what sounds good.
 
A big room is a big room and there are only so many things you can do to address acoustical intimacy in such spaces.  Adding to that, the desired acoustic conditions for contemporary worship may conflict with the goal of acoustical intimacy.  I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to Architects and churches why the big fan shaped worship space they want because it is more visually 'intimate' generally has exactly the opposite effect acoustically.
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mark ahlenius

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 09:03:47 PM »

Hi Brad,

thanks for your comments - all very good.  We did hire an acoustical expert to meet with us throughout the building design phases and we got great results.  That was about 8+ years ago when we built this new building.  He understood our goals and desires.  Its hard to move from a small room which had that flavor of intimacy (plus many audio issues) to a larger space and expect the same results.  But in the end we were quite pleased with the results.  Afterwards his comment was that he hardly ever gets to be involved from day one as opposed to fixing problems after a building is made without such inputs.

I think the intelligibility of our room with the current system is very good - for the spoken word.  This of course was a main concern.  Getting a great sounding room musically and for spoken words are not necessarily that easy (referring to article I read on this site by Pat Brown).

That said, am going to have expert come by to run some "acoustical diagnostics" so to speak on the sound system - just to see if anything has changed in the speaker cabs, amps, DSP, or signal path which could be coloring the audio clarity and/or intimacy.  Will let you all know what we find.

thanks again,

'mark

As to the general EQ issue, channel equalization affects just one source or input while system equalization affects all inputs and sources the same.  Does the issue apply to all sources or just to some?  If you simply playback a CD or use a single mic as direct as possible to the speaker system is the issue still present?
 
Smaart, SysTune, TEF, SIM, Praxis, etc. are all tools to help in system tuning and they can be extremely useful in capable hands.  However, while they can all help understand what is happening and perhaps why you hear what you hear, none of them can tell you what sounds good.
 
A big room is a big room and there are only so many things you can do to address acoustical intimacy in such spaces.  Adding to that, the desired acoustic conditions for contemporary worship may conflict with the goal of acoustical intimacy.  I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to Architects and churches why the big fan shaped worship space they want because it is more visually 'intimate' generally has exactly the opposite effect acoustically.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 09:07:56 PM »

Mark....

What's your monitor situation?

Stage volume level?

Instrumentation/amps?

Program SPL in the room (at what distance)?



Still trying to cipher out the "intimacy" thing......
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mark ahlenius

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 12:39:44 AM »

Hi Dick,

our monitor situation is really sweet (no more wedgies!) - everything's done with Avioms.

So stage volume is only the drum kit (on risers :-(  ) and perhaps a sax.  Everything else uses direct boxes - oh and the vocals (4-6).

SPL,  I try to hold it down under 90-94 db SPL (C-weighted) approximately 35' from the center cluster in the center of the room.

best,

'mark

Mark....

What's your monitor situation?

Stage volume level?

Instrumentation/amps?

Program SPL in the room (at what distance)?



Still trying to cipher out the "intimacy" thing......
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Dan Costello

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 01:23:58 AM »

So stage volume is only the drum kit (on risers :-(  ) and perhaps a sax.  Everything else uses direct boxes - oh and the vocals (4-6).

From what you've said, this is likely a mix, production, and execution issue, not a hardware issue. Six vocalist plus drums, sax, and who knows what else, is not my idea of "intimate." If he wants intimate, tell him to cut the band down to 3 people, with no more than 2 of them singing.

-Dan.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 08:31:32 AM »

Hi Dick,

our monitor situation is really sweet (no more wedgies!) - everything's done with Avioms.

So stage volume is only the drum kit (on risers :-(  ) and perhaps a sax.  Everything else uses direct boxes - oh and the vocals (4-6).

SPL,  I try to hold it down under 90-94 db SPL (C-weighted) approximately 35' from the center cluster in the center of the room.

best,

'mark

Sounds reasonable.  Have you tried delaying the system? 
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Re: System EQ vs. channel strip EQ
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 08:31:32 AM »


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