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[gordonmcgregor]

Opera or ballet?

BOTH!!

[Justice C. Bigler]

Opera or ballet?

Neither actually, at least not in this specific example. Think East Indian...

[Caleb Dueck]

+1.  It is sometimes necessary to "fire" clients.

+2.  Referral sometimes equals "inflict on a competitor."

[Luke Geis]

Establish your rates for services.  Treat all comers equally.  If you're basing it on anything other than service/gear provided, it is going to bite you in the butt down the line when someone finds out you've charged them more than someone else for the same service.  If you don't want to work for them, don't.  But don't make it a decision based on "PITA" criteria.   There are other, more acceptable ways to tailor the charge to the job such as:

1.  Time spent advancing the gig (verifying access/power, etc)

2.  Mileage

3.  Manpower (more hands required due to limited setup time, for example)

4.  Clearly stated rate sheet listing "additional charges" for stuff you know they're going to need but haven't included in the order.  That way when they come to you at the gig and ask for the stuff, they've got the price in hand already.  Wireless mics?  No problem.  $50/rig......just as it says on the rate sheet.

Keep your charges based on the actual work.  If they're more work, bill it as such, but bill for the work, not for who they are......or aren't.

I should have clarified that I don't disclose my cost when the decision is made. Simply that I can't help them at the cost that they presented. I do a line style invoice system where the client pays only for what is used and for time involved ( I have a different approach for non-profit organizations with 501c status ). It's not an ok, I will do this for X price and the next client pays three times that for the same service. I don't mind helping a client that is a pain if they are going to pay for the service at the cost I present. That is how it is. But if the client is a pain ( or is going to be ) and they want it for half what it should cost, I simply say that I can't help them for that price, call these guys. I think you got my tactic confused?  Asking for the budget before giving a price gives me the benefit of knowing the clients understanding of reality. I can choose to give them a price that is more competitive at that point, or simply state that I can't do it for that rate. Most of my current clients don't ask and pay what I desire. The new ones I get are usually coming to me because they want me. So they don't haggle much either. But on occasion ( 90% of the time bands ) I get people that are totally unrealistic. They want the world at less than half the cost. And when you tell them what it's really going to cost they about laugh. Then I ask if they have called around for pricing? If the answer is no, I tell them that I am pretty competitive and that they are welcome to shop cost and see.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I should have clarified that I don't disclose my cost when the decision is made. Simply that I can't help them at the cost that they presented. I do a line style invoice system where the client pays only for what is used and for time involved ( I have a different approach for non-profit organizations with 501c status ). It's not an ok, I will do this for X price and the next client pays three times that for the same service. I don't mind helping a client that is a pain if they are going to pay for the service at the cost I present. That is how it is. But if the client is a pain ( or is going to be ) and they want it for half what it should cost, I simply say that I can't help them for that price, call these guys. I think you got my tactic confused?  Asking for the budget before giving a price gives me the benefit of knowing the clients understanding of reality. I can choose to give them a price that is more competitive at that point, or simply state that I can't do it for that rate. Most of my current clients don't ask and pay what I desire. The new ones I get are usually coming to me because they want me. So they don't haggle much either. But on occasion ( 90% of the time bands ) I get people that are totally unrealistic. They want the world at less than half the cost. And when you tell them what it's really going to cost they about laugh. Then I ask if they have called around for pricing? If the answer is no, I tell them that I am pretty competitive and that they are welcome to shop cost and see.

If you don't have a fixed formula for setting your fee, you'll be all over the map.  People will see that and will not take you seriously as a business.  Small, medium or large system.  Hourly rate, day rate, multi-day rate.  Manpower.  Logistics.  Set your rates, stick to them.  Build in some "flex" if you want.

Consistency sells. 

It's not rocket surgery.

[Patrick Tracy]

Neither actually, at least not in this specific example. Think East Indian...

That would be caste, with the "e".

I've done my share. One time they were giving me what I thought was a "turn it up" gesture but it was "thumbs up" in approval of the stage mix. I turned it up and got feedback. Maybe the "okay' gesture isn't used in their home country or it has another meaning. Like the haggling it's just a cultural thing that takes a bit of adjustment.

[Tim McCulloch]

That would be caste, with the "e".

I've done my share. One time they were giving me what I thought was a "turn it up" gesture but it was "thumbs up" in approval of the stage mix. I turned it up and got feedback. Maybe the "okay' gesture isn't used in their home country or it has another meaning. Like the haggling it's just a cultural thing that takes a bit of adjustment.

The "O"kay sign in the USA... the forefinger touching the thumb in a circle... refers to the anus in several other cultures.

[Randall Hyde]

Establish your rates for services.  Treat all comers equally. 

Almost.
I have lots of long-term clients getting prices from many years ago. New comers don't get those prices because I've moved on. Though I've raise my prices to older clients, they can't afford my new client rates (hey, I know, I've tried); they took care of me in my younger days, I'm taking care of them now. Well, plus the fact that I'm not exactly losing money on them...

If you're basing it on anything other than service/gear provided, it is going to bite you in the butt down the line when someone finds out you've charged them more than someone else for the same service. 

I tell my new clients that if they consistently use me for as long as my older clients have, they'll continue to get newer gear and better service for the same price they're paying today -- just like my older clients.

If you don't want to work for them, don't.  But don't make it a decision based on "PITA" criteria.   There are other, more acceptable ways to tailor the charge to the job such as:

1.  Time spent advancing the gig (verifying access/power, etc)

2.  Mileage

3.  Manpower (more hands required due to limited setup time, for example)

agreed, but...

4.  Clearly stated rate sheet listing "additional charges" for stuff you know they're going to need but haven't included in the order.  That way when they come to you at the gig and ask for the stuff, they've got the price in hand already.  Wireless mics?  No problem.  $50/rig......just as it says on the rate sheet.

Disagree. If you know they're going to need it, it needs to be in the quote. Leaving it out so you can jack up the cost later on is poor service IMO. Indeed, I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten jobs because my clients were fed up with "sound guys" nickel and diming them to death in exactly this fashion. If you don't advance the show well enough to determine what they need, it's your fault not their's. If you're explicitly leaving equipment out of the quote with the expectation that they'll be forced to pay for it when you don't deliver, that's disingenuous at best, fraudulent at worst. E.g., if I get to a show and the lead singer decides I have to provide a wireless mic and the promoter never told me about this, I suck it up and provide the wireless (granted, a relatively cheap one like a Shure SLX/SM58). The next time the promoter hires me I quote the price including the wireless, but I don't hold them hostage when the band is setting up.

Yes, a promoter can take advantage of you if you're nice like this. If this happens more than once with someone, I refer them to someone else unless the money really is good enough to justify it.

Keep your charges based on the actual work.  If they're more work, bill it as such, but bill for the work, not for who they are......or aren't.

For repeat clients (or those you expect as repeat clients) I couldn't agree more. For one-offs, I always negotiate the best deal I can; if it's in Newport Beach CA (a rather well to do community), I'm going to try and get more money than a one-off in Fontana CA (a relatively poor area). That said, issues like race, personality, religion, etc., never come into play. I can take one person's money just as I can take another's.

I've never personally had anyone try and talk me down in price. The moment someone tried that with me I'd immediately ask for a full payment or refuse to do the job; I'd be too concerned that presales, or whatever funding, has gone south and it's a good indication that I'm about to do a show for less than I contracted for. Fortunately, I've only had a couple of promoters fall through and not pay. But I'm quickly getting to the point where the size of my shows would kill me if I didn't get paid for then.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Luke Geis]

I too have found that pricing can't be as esoteric as it should be. Simple formula and simple math should prevail, but it doesn't. I love to take care of my long time clients. That being said, they started with me when I was charging dirt. We both get the privilege of being business partners forever. The newer clients do pay more, but they are only paying what is a competitive price. They are not getting gouged, or taken advantage of. The client's really only care about how you make them feel. If they are warm and fuzzy they will be happy. 

I am also one that doesn't like to nickle and dime. If I get the feeling that I will need something that is not on the tech rider/estimate I will bring it in case. The next time around I will add it to the estimate and if they ask about it I tell them it was used last year and I didn't charge for it. I find that most times there is at least one thing that wasn't asked for that is always needed. Usually a wireless product.

Getting back to the main subject. I don't find ethnicity to be a factor in expectation of performance. I have done a show for a group of little girls that don't speak a lick of English and the show turned out just like any other. Iv'e done shows for people I didn't see until two minutes before show time with no sound check and no BM around to direct. You get what you get and run with it. If they are haggling after wards about the price and they have a good reason, I will bend. But the next time it will be full payment prior to the event and I won't let them have another reason to try and haggle me. I have been lucky and that has never happened to me!!!! It's usually chasing the money down that is the issue. I had one band write me a bad check, luckily it was for only an hour of my time and I didn't bring any equipment. I had one DJ that just straight up stiffed me and was probably never going to pay regardless. That was the last time rental of equipment went out before payment was remanded. I don't go for the, I don't get paid till after the gig, I will have money for you then. No, if you need to make that money so bad to pay me, then you can't afford not to pay me now.......

What does make sense is to have a price list that can be handed out on demand. It should lay out everything you have and what it costs for rental. I even have one that lays out full system costs minus labor. I have found that when clients look at the sheet they start adding up mic's and all the little costs and they start to get scared. The full system cost includes everything and is a packaged deal. Then all you have to do is factor labor. The client after doing some calling around will have a good idea of what it will cost to do the event and you can choose to bend pricing a little if you want the gig that badly. It is very much like sending a bid estimate. You don't want to be too low, but you don't want to be too high either. There are five other guys sending in a bid. Sending the lowest one won't do you any good and even being the highest may not either. If your going to have the highest bid, you better have the value added services nailed down to pull that show. Actually it's all about having the best value. If your good and your reputation is known, putting in a bid that is on the higher end will work if you can show that your giving the client more than the other guys. If your reputation isn't known and you place the lowest bid, you only going to get it because the client is cheap. I don't want to be that guy. You know the one everyone else is upset at for lowering the bar.

[ProSoundWeb Community]