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Author Topic: The future of digital consoles  (Read 22971 times)

Frank DeWitt

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 12:19:05 PM »

The last 4 or f posts are interesting, and exactly what i want as well.

It's digital, it has a Graphic User Interface.  That means it should be up to me how I lay it out.

Seldom tweak effects? leave them hidden.
Want them easy to get to and always in the same place, then I should be able to open the window for each one, buy a 3rd or 4th 20 inch screen for $100 and drag them where I want them. 
But I want real controls, OK I knuckle under and buy the rack mount USB connected encoder and small LCD displays and stack them up.  Click on the right boxes in setup, apply the overlays to make them effects controls and I am set.

I think that would be a winner.

I can't do all that with SAC  (The GUI is not it's strong suit) but I was able to decide that I want to be able to see every fader and arrange them in a way that is logical to me.   I was able to create one button recalls for scenes, and do some other things to personalize it. 

I hope that is where digital is going.
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Simon Ryder

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2013, 12:43:42 PM »

Well JR, until they invent the brain implant to control the console, we still have to use our fingers and eyes ;) This is where I think digital has missed the boat. Aside from the usual complaints of having to navigate layers on the surface and learning the workflow for different brands, lack of easy instant control of the outboard is the number 1 complaint I hear from every visiting BE that comes to use our Venue desk. Yet it's rarely talked about on forums. Good friend and mentor Dave Rat wrote an article about it last year and it's the major reason why he still won't switch to digital desks now that the sonic issues seem to be worked out. I think there is a market for it and it should be an option with the more pricey desks.

I would say that there is a market for it with anybody who likes to MIX. There are many of us out there. Mixing to me is an organic flowing art form that is about putting as few processes in the way of it as possible. All the time we have to engage "tech brain" and press 12 buttons to get to where we can make an adjustment removes that organic artistic process and puts us back in logic brain mode.

The mixing "art" is currently being sacrificed on the alter of convenience and wow factor. Simple and what you know are actually the best things for achieving a stellar mix. Not watching your talent whilst you hunt through layers to be able to grab the feedback control on the snare delay means you can't then hit that vocal delay cue etc.

I am not against digital at all, the sound quality is there now, they contain so many amazing and useful features and the price points are right. The problem is many of them are a complete PITA to mix on.

I wish somebody would release one that sounds great, has the ability to work on more than one channel simultaneously (maybe 4 ch?) with hard pots and controls for each main function without layer switching on EQ or auxes etc. Also I want to see hard controls for say 2 x effects engines to be accessed at once, with all parameters appearing as hardware buttons.

Accessibility, ergonomics and speed are the 3 things that NOBODY has yet got right in the digital world in my opinion.

Lets have a little more focus on making the desks a joy to mix on - rather than insisting that the engineer becomes constrained by the designer's mindset.

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Brad Weber

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2013, 12:47:05 PM »

I look at it in several general ways.  The first is the difference between a mixer as a single device versus a mixing system with multiple integrated devices.  The latter certainly has advantages but also has additional considerations in terms of multiple variations on systems, interconnections to address and so on.
 
The second is the difference between a personal mixer and a mixer for use by others or by multiple others.  For example, SAC intrigues my as something for my own use but I am not sold on its use for schools, public venues, rentals, etc. where the users may be numerous and varied.
 
Finally, are we facing a new paradigm in terms of useful life and depreciation?  Are we looking at mixers having a likely effective useful life more like that of a computer than that of an amplifier or speaker?  Is a mixer going to become a 2-5 year investment rather than a 5-10 year one?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2013, 01:07:02 PM »

Well then...

I had a long, winding reply written to Simon and then Brad Weber posts his three paragraphs.

+1, Brad.

Simon, I got into this business because I'm a mixerperson at heart and motivation.  The analog mixer form factor evolved in a pretty linear (literally) fashion for 40-something years.  As John Roberts has pointed out, the current crop of digital mixers are "transitional" in terms of UI.  Users like us want physical controls and lots of them because that's the way we learned... all our muscle memory, all of our conditioned responses are recorded and recalled for using a big analog mixer and outboard racks.  Change isn't easy and shouldn't be thought of as trivial.  OTOH, Bob Capp's 8 year old grandson is not burdened by a legacy UI or experience.  Should he have grandpa's "audio curse" and go into the biz, he will develop physical operation techniques to utilize the tools of the day and influence the development of new (or retro) tools.

I'm all about using whatever tool works for you, but as an Olde Skool Analogue Guy®, I must say I enjoy the new digiboards all the kids are excited about.  Although I'm primarily a system guy these days, I've been mixing more support acts and getting my chops back.  I'm developing work flow that makes sense, that gives me access to controls where/when I need them.  It's not the same as a PM4K or XL200, but I can still turn out a satisfactory mix.  And FWIW, I haven't mixed a show for our shop on analog FOH for at least 2 years.  The times have changed.
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Nick Enright

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2013, 01:25:03 PM »

The mixing "art" is currently being sacrificed on the alter of convenience and wow factor. Simple and what you know are actually the best things for achieving a stellar mix. Not watching your talent whilst you hunt through layers to be able to grab the feedback control on the snare delay means you can't then hit that vocal delay cue etc.

Also it seems to me that at some level the art of mixing is an interactive art with the band and the audience being the viewers. At some level doesn't the absolute repeat-ability of a show/mix detract from the live nature of it? Leaving the soundguy to the level of technical and trouble shooting, and not providing the creative essence of why we mainly only get paid to push big black boxes around?

(Honestly, I'm also not mixing at the levels that many of you are and have about 3-days (small festival) on a digital board, and liked it)

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Greg_Cameron

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2013, 01:39:29 PM »

Accessibility, ergonomics and speed are the 3 things that NOBODY has yet got right in the digital world in my opinion.

Lets have a little more focus on making the desks a joy to mix on - rather than insisting that the engineer becomes constrained by the designer's mindset.

Bravo! I concur. I bet the reps for many of these mixer companies are watching this thread. I actually added my feature request for virtual outboard to Avid's Venue feature suggestion site. Maybe someone will listen. It's seems like a relatively logical and simple idea to me. But since it hasn't been done yet, maybe it's not.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 01:45:20 PM »

Well JR, until they invent the brain implant to control the console, we still have to use our fingers and eyes ;) This is where I think digital has missed the boat. Aside from the usual complaints of having to navigate layers on the surface and learning the workflow for different brands, lack of easy instant control of the outboard is the number 1 complaint I hear from every visiting BE that comes to use our Venue desk. Yet it's rarely talked about on forums. Good friend and mentor Dave Rat wrote an article about it last year and it's the major reason why he still won't switch to digital desks now that the sonic issues seem to be worked out. I think there is a market for it and it should be an option with the more pricey desks.

I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter. The higher level subjective aspects can still remain under human control, but as software gets better and easier to drive the artist may be able to handle the subjective aspects of a performance from stage.  8)

One paradigm shift I have suggested in the past is mixing to results targets or response templates, rather than +/- whatever from whatever. Presumably we don't want a wildly different output every performance, while we must deal with different inputs every time. Anything that can be measured can be managed, with a smart enough plan. 

This is not trivial or it would already be done, but don't expect your grandchildren to be mixing live sound into their golden years, even if you might  8)

JR
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Simon Ryder

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2013, 02:00:51 PM »

It's not the same as a PM4K or XL200, but I can still turn out a satisfactory mix.  And FWIW, I haven't mixed a show for our shop on analog FOH for at least 2 years.  The times have changed.

As you say, it really is a transitional period. There are now engineers out there who have never mixed on analogue!

What is being fitted into the digital boards today is incredible. I have used the XL8, Digico SD7, Avid Venue, Vi6, PM5D etc and most of the smaller boards. And to someone who cam into this in the mid '90s, what they are achieving today and the quality is amazing.

The power of tools being used now is tremendous and on every single one of these desks,don't get me wrong, a superb mix is possible.

The trouble is, sometimes I feel that that mix is occurring despite the interface rather than because of it. Like, I'm sure, any other experienced engineer, I hear what needs to be done and know exactly what I am going to do before I touch a button. Where I get frustrated is when I am sometimes sacrificing an adjustment in favour of another because of the limits caused by the operating interface.

The trade off is of course some facilities that are only really usable in the digital domain.

I am again these days carrying an effects rack with me for use when doing certain types of music where I need fast adjustment of multiple parameters on different units simultaneously. (Dub and psychedelic rock for example)

I guess what I am hoping is that someone releases more not less control surface.

These could be touch screen panels with their own independent assigns. I am quite happy to swap knobs for sliders on a touch screen.

48 faders per layer are also a big plus for me - I like to see and be able to adjust immediately.

I am quite happy to use a touch screen tablet to assist in system tune, make select adjustments to a mix whilst out in the crowd, or tune monitor mixes but I would hate to have to try and mix a complex show on one.


As it happens, the desk that I still most want to use for FOH is an XL4 though now with a PRO2 as an extension board for FX return routing, system routing etc. The large rack of outboard is a must still though.

The desk I most want to use in monitor world is an M7 or a Vi6. It's a speed thing and they both really excel in monitor world IMHO.
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Simon Ryder

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2013, 02:03:04 PM »

I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter. The higher level subjective aspects can still remain under human control, but as software gets better and easier to drive the artist may be able to handle the subjective aspects of a performance from stage.  8)

One paradigm shift I have suggested in the past is mixing to results targets or response templates, rather than +/- whatever from whatever. Presumably we don't want a wildly different output every performance, while we must deal with different inputs every time. Anything that can be measured can be managed, with a smart enough plan. 

This is not trivial or it would already be done, but don't expect your grandchildren to be mixing live sound into their golden years, even if you might  8)

JR


I so hope that you are wrong JR! :'( :'(

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Greg_Cameron

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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »

I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter.

I hear where you're coming from. But until then, I think it would be prudent to have an analog, well, for analog ;) I did a show a couple of weeks ago where we had over 20 short set acts over the course 5 hours ranging from duos & trios to full bands and talking heads, to a couple of choirs. It would have made my life a ton easier if I had that virtual outboard for all my vocal channels and group compressors along with the verb & delay controls. As it was, I was jumping through layers and plugin screens like mad keeping up with all the changes on the fly. The show would have been much easier to do on an "old skool" analog desk with outboard, but that's not the desk we have anymore. While digital offers so much more overall, in that way it offers far less. It shouldn't be that way.
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Re: The future of digital consoles
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »


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