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Author Topic: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band  (Read 15538 times)

Mac Kerr

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2012, 02:02:41 PM »

Wow, the MN market must be a lot different than the Chicago market.  Sound providers are a dime a dozen around here which I guess drives the prices down.  I've yet to encounter a sound provider who would charge more than $500.00 for my modified/ revised needs I listed.  Most around here work solo too with no tech.  I need to move to MN!  :D

A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company. There is a business side to this "business" that says the point of it all is to make money. This has been discussed a lot, so much so that even back in 2006 someone decided to post the numbers to build a "bar band" system. Check out THIS LINK and go down to Bennett Prescott's post with the link to his spreadsheet. Even in 2006 it came to $18,000, today it may be more or less.

With a minimum investment of $20,000 you need to get more than $500 every time you send it out, with shipping, labor to set it up, strike it, operate it, tear it down, and ship it home. You also need to cover all the maintenance you will have to do to keep it running and in presentable shape. If your labor is worth $100 (not much), shipping $100 (price having someone else deliver and pick up), maintenance, insurance, storage, etc $50, you're only getting $250 for the gear. For that $20k system that is a little over 1% ROI.

Charge what you're worth, and avoid the jobs that don't value your worth enough to pay for it.

Mac
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Mike Christy

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2012, 02:06:15 PM »

For $500 you'll get something that makes noise.  If you want good sound, triple it.

On the other hand, I could bring my midi-accordion "one-man band" and do the show for a grand...........

Hey Dick! I'll gladly "reinforce" your squeeze box for $1500, w/$40 PSW discount.

Item   Rate      Sub
PA   0.03   $30,000    $900
Eng   30/hr   10   300
Tech   20/hr   10   200
Labor   10/hr   10   100
Trans   .40/mile   100   40
         
         
         $1,540
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2012, 02:08:22 PM »

A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company.

Thanks, Mac. 

The numbers I threw out were still fairly arbitrary given the nebulous requirements.  The point is, he's dealing with "ankle-biting part-timers" who have day jobs and enjoy looking like sound guys.  I didn't want to say it directly, but I've seen it for decades on both sides, performers and "sound providers".

It's just ludicrous for a band to charge 3 grand for a performance and spend $500 on the presentation.  If the shoe was on the other foot with sound providers getting the 3 grand and paying the band $500, I guess that would make the SP an agent......

Rim shot here.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 02:25:18 PM by dick rees »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2012, 02:10:20 PM »

Hey Dick! I'll gladly "reinforce" your squeeze box for $1500, w/$40 PSW discount.

Item   Rate      Sub
PA   0.03   $30,000    $900
Eng   30/hr   10   300
Tech   20/hr   10   200
Labor   10/hr   10   100
Trans   .40/mile   100   40
         
         
         $1,540

Thanks, Mike.  I'll keep you in mind if I ever un-retire.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2012, 02:38:22 PM »

A sound provider that doesn't charge at least what Dick quoted is a hobby not a sound company. There is a business side to this "business" that says the point of it all is to make money. This has been discussed a lot, so much so that even back in 2006 someone decided to post the numbers to build a "bar band" system. Check out THIS LINK and go down to Bennett Prescott's post with the link to his spreadsheet. Even in 2006 it came to $18,000, today it may be more or less.

With a minimum investment of $20,000 you need to get more than $500 every time you send it out, with shipping, labor to set it up, strike it, operate it, tear it down, and ship it home. You also need to cover all the maintenance you will have to do to keep it running and in presentable shape. If your labor is worth $100 (not much), shipping $100 (price having someone else deliver and pick up), maintenance, insurance, storage, etc $50, you're only getting $250 for the gear. For that $20k system that is a little over 1% ROI.

Charge what you're worth, and avoid the jobs that don't value your worth enough to pay for it.

Mac

Carl,

I'm looking at my system upgrades for 2013, and right now I am planning on:
- Increasing my number of JBL VRX cabinets
- Adding new 4-wedge monitor kit for smaller events
- New drumfill/dj monitor setup, with amps
- 15' more cable ramps, and maybe 35' more beyond that
- Doubling my microphone setup
- 78 new XLR cables of varying lengths
- 2 new subsnakes
- 4 new processing/amp racks

I'm floating around $33,400 in expenses (list; I should be able to knock 20% off of that by shopping smart), and this is just an *upgrade* to my existing systems. I spent at least $20K this year as well...

I think it was Tim M. who mentioned recently an anecdote of him with his boss, and the boss wants to take their business "to the next level," and to which he asked him what the current investment was. The answer was something on the order of $300,000, and Tim informed him it'd be at LEAST that same amount to go "to the next level." So, take the amount you've spent to date, and plan on spending at least that same amount to move up a notch.

Ray
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Josh Daws

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 03:40:23 PM »

this is what you should look at at a minimum...

4 x JBL VRX 932LA
4 x JBL VRX 918s
4 x QSC 3102 amp
1 x EAW UX8800 processor

whatever you want then for a console. yamaha LS9-32, or a whatever you like.

this is about 20k and upwards in price by the time you add cabling and appropriate cases/covers. i use this system with my production company i work for and it suffices quite well for most events, and will agree with most technical riders substitutions...
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 04:13:42 PM »

this is what you should look at at a minimum...

4 x JBL VRX 932LA
4 x JBL VRX 918s
4 x QSC 3102 amp
1 x EAW UX8800 processor

whatever you want then for a console. yamaha LS9-32, or a whatever you like.

this is about 20k and upwards in price by the time you add cabling and appropriate cases/covers. i use this system with my production company i work for and it suffices quite well for most events, and will agree with most technical riders substitutions...

Any particular reason for recommending an EAW processor for JBL speakers? It won't have any JBL factory presets in it. You can get the JBL presets in a dbx260 or in Crown amps instead of the QSC amps.

Mac
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Tim Perry

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2012, 06:29:43 PM »

Carl, If it is set in stone that you must have a PA for the county fair circuit, let me suggest a middle of the road approach:  That would be 4 double 15" tops and 4 double 18" subs.  These would be of the quality of JBL SRX or similar.
Next you will need an amp rack with sufficient power to drive these... and then a power distro.

I'm pretty sure I could not get the above inside of your budget... but maybe you can run into a great deal.

As always, live sound is a balancing act between what you need, what you desire. what you can afford, and what you can transport.
 
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Josh Daws

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2012, 09:49:55 PM »

Any particular reason for recommending an EAW processor for JBL speakers? It won't have any JBL factory presets in it. You can get the JBL presets in a dbx260 or in Crown amps instead of the QSC amps.

Mac

because we have found that the DBX processors to fail within 6 months of touring...the EAW also does a lot more, like temperature and humidity adjustments (on the go to so you can update it seemlessly)

oh and the crown iTECH or XTI amps are a GREAT match for these too, due to speaker profiles being built in! :) but we have just found that the QSC PLX3102 to be amazingly reliable and can takea hell of a beating. we haven't had 1 amp go down this tour season.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 09:56:27 PM by Josh Daws »
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2012, 11:07:08 PM »

because we have found that the DBX processors to fail within 6 months of touring...the EAW also does a lot more, like temperature and humidity adjustments (on the go to so you can update it seemlessly)

oh and the crown iTECH or XTI amps are a GREAT match for these too, due to speaker profiles being built in! :) but we have just found that the QSC PLX3102 to be amazingly reliable and can takea hell of a beating. we haven't had 1 amp go down this tour season.

I find the statement your making about the dbx processors to be a bit of a stretch. I personally own a 260, 480 and 4800, the 4800 being the newest addition. None of these units have ever been a problem and two of them were bought used from LAB members.
 
OP,
Find yourself good entry level touring cabinets for a reasonable price and build a sytem for 1000 people based on a good foundation. I lean towards JBLs SRX series and know for a fact 4ea SRX725s, and 4ea. SRX728s powered properly will get the job done indoors or out. And as Mac stated above, the dbx driveracks mate perfectly with JBLs cabinets and anyones amplifiers.
 
If after you've built a system that will cover 1000 waterbags and you should find yourself needing a larger system, I would then suggest that your band is making enough money to purchase a larger system, expand your system, rent a system, and pay for a professional to run sound for you.
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Re: Sound System Upgrade Recommendations for touring band
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2012, 11:07:08 PM »


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