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Author Topic: Problem removing frequency in monitor  (Read 6532 times)

Greg Bartusch

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Problem removing frequency in monitor
« on: December 12, 2012, 01:07:31 am »

Last weekend I was mixing a band in a bar. The stage is small 15'W x 8'deep. Ceiling is low 7' tall.
I use 4 monitor mixes from FOH on a A&H Mix Wizard. I have 4 EQ's for each monitor. (Center mix uses 2 monitors) Monitors are Yamaha MSR 400's. Mains are PRX series (if that's needed).
Just a heads up since the stage is so small I have to pull out almost all the frequencies out for the monitors or they will feedback. I've never found a solution for this. (Maybe a feedback eliminator)?
The lead singer the other night would talk in his beta 58 and I would get a 250Hz that I could not remove from the monitors because all the frequencies on the monitor EQ's are totally pulled out. Why would I still get 250Hz coming through the monitors when he talked or sang? Really the only way to remove this is to turn down his monitor channel. Then he can't hear himself.
Should I put the monitors on milk crates to bring them closer to the singer? Should I get better monitor EQ's.?The current ones are dual 15 band (forgot the brand)but not great ones. I haven't had this issue with other singers in the past, just this one guy. Was it just his voice? I want to fix this because the same band will be back in the future. If I left anything out, let me know. Thank you for any info.
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Nathan Salt

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 02:38:44 am »

What do you mean by all the frequencies are pulled out? As in all the faders on the graphic are turned down? Because all that does is turn the whole level down and completely mess with the phase of the signal and give you way more problems.
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Nathan Salt

Dave Bigelow

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2012, 02:41:36 am »

If you're pulling out that many frequencies then you're doing something wrong.

Flatten out the EQ, turn the sends down a bit and start over.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2012, 04:45:59 am »

If you're pulling out that many frequencies then you're doing something wrong.

Flatten out the EQ, turn the sends down a bit and start over.

+1

Also, minimizing feedback with a 15 band EQ is like nailing tacks with a sledge hammer.  You might drive the tack but you're gonna damage everything around it.
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Mark McFarlane
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Turn down what's too loud.

Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2012, 05:48:34 am »

If you're pulling out that many frequencies then you're doing something wrong.

Flatten out the EQ, turn the sends down a bit and start over.

+1

Also, minimizing feedback with a 15 band EQ is like nailing tacks with a sledge hammer.  You might drive the tack but you're gonna damage everything around it.
*****************************************
These two above. Also any chance there was something wrong with his microphone? Swap that out next time as well and see it the problem gets better. Of course check the monitors themselves.  Blown horns?

I'm guessing you have a Bata 58A and the lead singer is center stage. This mic has a supercardioid pick up pattern. If your using the 2 monitors on one mix for the lead singer make sure they are placed around 40 degrees Left and right of the singer. Down load this link
http://www.shure.com/uploads/specification_sheet/upload/123/us_pro_beta58_specsheet.pdf.pdf
and look at the polar plots. Imagine your singer being at the
 -20 db area. Place your monitors in front of the singer around the 120 to 150 degree area. Keep the microphone Level, not pointed down at the monitors as well.
Last if this a very small stage sometimes its worth trying side fills. Have 2 speakers on tripods L/R and maybe just 1 floor monitor properly placed in the center. Gives better overall sound without that 250 hz on the floor mud that you may be hearing.
Douglas R. Allen
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2012, 07:20:40 am »

In this case-more IS NOT better.

As others have said, you are doing it wrong and not understanding the purpose of the eq.

Once you have "rung out" a couple of "hot spots' you need to STOP!  It is not going to get any better-or louder.

Only start to sound worse.
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Nicolas Poisson

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 07:49:34 am »

Maybe the folks on stage are too loud. It is always a good thing to have low level on stage, and this is even more true as the stage is small. Appart from feedback problems, it also helps having a good sound in the FOH (less bleeding). I know this is hard to explain musicians to play at a lower level (there is the groove you know, etc.). Not beeing able to hear oneself is a relative question of monitor too low or stage sound too hot. Technically, lowering the second parameter is more efficient.

My stage is only 8'x10', and I never had any problem of feedback with any voice mic, including SM58, Beta58, Beta87, SM86, Audix OM3, Beta57, KMS105... I even never had to play with the EQ to eliminate feedback on voice mics. However:
- the FOH is made of coaxial speakers, and there is at least 3 feet between the "FoH plane" and any microphones
- monitors are good coax as well
- I have 31 bands + parametric on every outputs (digital board)
- I put 4 inches rigid rockwhool on stage left and rear wall

I have more problems miking the upright piano with Beta98. I cannot raise the volume as loud as I would like sometimes, because this starts feeding back with the FoH (no monitors - do not even think about it);

So, a few tips :
- lower stage volume if possible
- good placement of monitors with respect to microphones, taking directivity into account
- maybe less instruments in the monitors
- check the remainging feedbacks are not due to the FoH
- then, if it does not help, maybe you'll have to invest.
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dick rees

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2012, 08:54:37 am »

Last weekend I was mixing a band in a bar. The stage is small 15'W x 8'deep. Ceiling is low 7' tall.
I use 4 monitor mixes from FOH on a A&H Mix Wizard. I have 4 EQ's for each monitor. (Center mix uses 2 monitors) Monitors are Yamaha MSR 400's. Mains are PRX series (if that's needed).
Just a heads up since the stage is so small I have to pull out almost all the frequencies out for the monitors or they will feedback. I've never found a solution for this. (Maybe a feedback eliminator)?
The lead singer the other night would talk in his beta 58 and I would get a 250Hz that I could not remove from the monitors because all the frequencies on the monitor EQ's are totally pulled out. Why would I still get 250Hz coming through the monitors when he talked or sang? Really the only way to remove this is to turn down his monitor channel. Then he can't hear himself.
Should I put the monitors on milk crates to bring them closer to the singer? Should I get better monitor EQ's.?The current ones are dual 15 band (forgot the brand)but not great ones. I haven't had this issue with other singers in the past, just this one guy. Was it just his voice? I want to fix this because the same band will be back in the future. If I left anything out, let me know. Thank you for any info.

Greg...

If you cut all the frequencies on the EQ (or any EQ), you have in effect created a "flat line" across the entire frequency range with no boosts or cuts, just "X"dB lower in level. When you apply make-up gain somewhere (anywhere) you're back to square one with a "flat" EQ.

See?

Si.
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John Halliburton

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2012, 09:13:03 am »

Last weekend I was mixing a band in a bar. The stage is small 15'W x 8'deep. Ceiling is low 7' tall.
I use 4 monitor mixes from FOH on a A&H Mix Wizard. I have 4 EQ's for each monitor. (Center mix uses 2 monitors) Monitors are Yamaha MSR 400's. Mains are PRX series (if that's needed).
Just a heads up since the stage is so small I have to pull out almost all the frequencies out for the monitors or they will feedback. I've never found a solution for this. (Maybe a feedback eliminator)?
The lead singer the other night would talk in his beta 58 and I would get a 250Hz that I could not remove from the monitors because all the frequencies on the monitor EQ's are totally pulled out. Why would I still get 250Hz coming through the monitors when he talked or sang? Really the only way to remove this is to turn down his monitor channel. Then he can't hear himself.
Should I put the monitors on milk crates to bring them closer to the singer? Should I get better monitor EQ's.?The current ones are dual 15 band (forgot the brand)but not great ones. I haven't had this issue with other singers in the past, just this one guy. Was it just his voice? I want to fix this because the same band will be back in the future. If I left anything out, let me know. Thank you for any info.

Along with the other suggestions, I'll add this-since it is a small stage, also check to make sure the feedback isn't in the house speakers.  Do you have eq's on the house sends?

As others have said, and it bears repeating, slamming all the faders down on an eq does more harm than good.  Look through the "Study Hall" here and read Chuck McGregor's paper on gain structure through the sound system and how to set it up correctly.

Best regards,

John
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2012, 10:31:16 am »

...

Once you have "rung out" a couple of "hot spots' you need to STOP!  It is not going to get any better-or louder.

Only start to sound worse.

+1. The max number of bands I'll cut on a 31 band EQ is 4-6.  That means after you pull down 2 or 3 faders on your 15 band EQ then STOP.  Any more adjustments and you are trashing the sound and causing other problems.

I'd put a 31 band EQ on my wish list for Santa Claus.
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Mark McFarlane
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Turn down what's too loud.
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