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Author Topic: Problem removing frequency in monitor  (Read 23722 times)

Samuel Rees

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Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2012, 02:36:22 PM »

I agree with what everyone has said.  And yes, 3db down on one item and 3db up on another is no change. 

Dick - your explanation of a tight mic pattern is dead on.  I'm lucky to work with bands who perform like this... rarely any mic issues.

The "hot" input gain I'm referencing is from past experience working with other bands whom turn the input pots full clockwise to get "the best sound out of the mic".  And they always had problems with feedback across many frequencies.  When I started working with the bands, I trimmed every mic'd input down to manageable levels and notched where I could - this fixed their feedback issues and they were able to keep their monitor speakers (wattage) where they liked it (loud).

The point I'm making is, I don't know how hot the OP runs the inputs, but from his explanation of the issues (especially with a Beta58), it sounded very similar to my past experiences... which was resolved by first trimming all the mic'd inputs.

I still don't think that makes sense. If a preamp is set to 40 db of gain ('too hot'-ish for a 58), and you reduce that to 25 db of gain, then turn your fader up 15 db, everything is exactly the same. If I understand you correctly, the only way what you are saying makes any sense is if whatever combination of fader position and preamp gain you configured resulted in a net reduction of volume from the previous configuration... which is of course, the same as turning it down via any means.

I think what you are saying is that it is possible to have the same output volume, but a different vulnerability to feedback, depending on how you configure your preamp gain and fader. This is not how it works though!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 02:42:43 PM by Samuel Rees »
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2012, 03:28:17 PM »

The "hot" input gain I'm referencing is from past experience working with other bands whom turn the input pots full clockwise to get "the best sound out of the mic"…

The point I'm making is, I don't know how hot the OP runs the inputs, but from his explanation of the issues (especially with a Beta58), it sounded very similar to my past experiences... which was resolved by first trimming all the mic'd inputs.
It seems that some of the bands you've worked with might have enjoyed that analog distortion that slamming a mic pre and impart to the signal.  That could account for certain frequencies (harmonics) standing out, thus causing a higher chance of feedback.

What seemed to fix the issue, however, was proper gain structure management.
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Jordan Wolf
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2012, 03:45:56 PM »

I still don't think that makes sense. If a preamp is set to 40 db of gain ('too hot'-ish for a 58), and you reduce that to 25 db of gain, then turn your fader up 15 db, everything is exactly the same. If I understand you correctly, the only way what you are saying makes any sense is if whatever combination of fader position and preamp gain you configured resulted in a net reduction of volume from the previous configuration... which is of course, the same as turning it down via any means.

I think what you are saying is that it is possible to have the same output volume, but a different vulnerability to feedback, depending on how you configure your preamp gain and fader. This is not how it works though!

I think we are talking about the same concept.

Using your example, the 25db gain on the Beta (established from the trim) would be the "starting point" (not the 40db - hopefully no one would start it that hot) with the slider or aux-send turned all the way down... with the channel PFL showing (i.e) +3db with a vocal input.  Then more db is added to the signal as it's passed through the aux-send or fader.  Maybe another way of saying it, the 25db level at the input is (do I dare say) less sensitive than 40db. 

It just sounds like the OP may have an input level too hot for the offending freq. if they are unable to notch it out.  At lease rule out a "hot" input.



 
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2012, 03:47:06 PM »

It seems that some of the bands you've worked with might have enjoyed that analog distortion that slamming a mic pre and impart to the signal.  That could account for certain frequencies (harmonics) standing out, thus causing a higher chance of feedback.

What seemed to fix the issue, however, was proper gain structure management.

Exactly.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2012, 03:50:31 PM »

I think we are talking about the same concept.

Using your example, the 25db gain on the Beta (established from the trim) would be the "starting point" (not the 40db - hopefully no one would start it that hot) with the slider or aux-send turned all the way down... with the channel PFL showing (i.e) +3db with a vocal input.  Then more db is added to the signal as it's passed through the aux-send or fader.  Maybe another way of saying it, the 25db level at the input is (do I dare say) less sensitive than 40db. 

It just sounds like the OP may have an input level too hot for the offending freq. if they are unable to notch it out.  At lease rule out a "hot" input.

My money is on the fact that the OP has really cheap, unsuitable EQ's and doesn't know how to use them.  Combine that with clueless musicians onstage carrying bags and bags of bad habits they justify with "we've always done it this way" or "dude, it's my SOUND" and you can see the problem.......

Forget about the "hot input" scenario.  It has long ago been debunked.  Think OE....
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 05:52:41 PM »

And why so many monitors and mixes for a stage that size. Why is it that newbs always have to mic everything, have way too many monitors and can't manage stage volume in a 50 square foot room. Once again sport fans, it's all bullshit for stages and rooms that size.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 05:53:22 PM »

If the mic is too hot, it will be overly sensitive to sound.  So, reduce the input gain on the mic channel.  When the gain is lowered, the monitor speakers (for his monitor) can be turned up so he can hear himself.

No. As was pointed out in a thread about guitar feedback, gain is gain. It does not matter whether it comes at the mic pre control, or the amp control, the feedback will occur at the same amount of total gain.

If the mic gain is too hot you may get clipping on the input of the console, but it does not make it "overly sensitive to sound".

Mac
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2012, 06:04:23 PM »

There is no way to change the sensitivity of the microphones element. What you can change is the channel gain which is the input level control for the channel strip. The mic will be no more or less able to pick up sound regardless of the channel strip gain control setting. Additionally the mic pattern will have an effect on the mics ability to reject side noise, back noise, or stage wash. With mics and monitors less is always more.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2012, 08:30:56 PM »

My money is on the fact that the OP has really cheap, unsuitable EQ's and doesn't know how to use them.  Combine that with clueless musicians onstage carrying bags and bags of bad habits they justify with "we've always done it this way" or "dude, it's my SOUND" and you can see the problem.......

Forget about the "hot input" scenario.  It has long ago been debunked.  Think OE....

Excellent!  And this seems to be normal for many bands.


No. As was pointed out in a thread about guitar feedback, gain is gain. It does not matter whether it comes at the mic pre control, or the amp control, the feedback will occur at the same amount of total gain.

If the mic gain is too hot you may get clipping on the input of the console, but it does not make it "overly sensitive to sound".

Mac

Correct.  I hesitated with the use of the word "sensitivity"; and yes, gain is gain.


And why so many monitors and mixes for a stage that size. Why is it that newbs always have to mic everything, have way too many monitors and can't manage stage volume in a 50 square foot room. Once again sport fans, it's all bullshit for stages and rooms that size.

hmmm... perhaps I can use your phrase when working with the younger highly informed bands (who are the greatest things that have ever appeared on this earth to grace our presence).
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Randall Hyde

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 08:44:07 PM »

I'd put a 31 band EQ on my wish list for Santa Claus.

Maybe even a parametric.

FWIW, I've never had to notch more than three frequencies out of a monitor mix to gain at least 3-6 dB additional gain before feedback in the monitors; even on some really weird stages. Usually, two frequencies suffice. However, I typically use a parametric EQ with a 0.1 octave bandwidth to avoid wiping out everything around the offending frequency.
cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 08:44:07 PM »


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