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Author Topic: Problem removing frequency in monitor  (Read 23707 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2012, 11:04:40 AM »

Back when I was pimping FLS I spent many hours demoing 1/3rd octave EQ while managing feedback. When you have a system well rung out, turning up the gain higher will cause a growling sound as all three or four dominant modes start trying to break out simultaneously (corrective EQ makes them all have the same likelihood to feedback).

Do a search for past discussions explaining why there are only a handful of specific feedback modes. Short answer= it's the gain "at" a those frequency modes as defined by path length- transit time/wavelength.

JR
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2012, 11:28:58 AM »

Back when I was pimping FLS I spent many hours demoing 1/3rd octave EQ while managing feedback. When you have a system well rung out, turning up the gain higher will cause a growling sound as all three or four dominant modes start trying to break out simultaneously (corrective EQ makes them all have the same likelihood to feedback).

Do a search for past discussions explaining why there are only a handful of specific feedback modes. Short answer= it's the gain "at" a those frequency modes as defined by path length- transit time/wavelength.

JR

Well I'm not going to repeat what has already been said here, however, I wouls suggest you look at the amount of gain and stage volume, also, in situations like this, you might be better off running the monitors as side fills rather than stuck on the floor.  If you have a couple of pole mount stands (assuming that the monitors are also equiped with the hat sockets) it can be a good way to get clarity and monitor level without feedback.  Just a suggestion.
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 12:50:39 PM »

Last weekend I was mixing a band in a bar. The stage is small 15'W x 8'deep. Ceiling is low 7' tall.
I use 4 monitor mixes from FOH on a A&H Mix Wizard. I have 4 EQ's for each monitor. (Center mix uses 2 monitors) Monitors are Yamaha MSR 400's. Mains are PRX series (if that's needed).
Just a heads up since the stage is so small I have to pull out almost all the frequencies out for the monitors or they will feedback. I've never found a solution for this. (Maybe a feedback eliminator)?
The lead singer the other night would talk in his beta 58 and I would get a 250Hz that I could not remove from the monitors because all the frequencies on the monitor EQ's are totally pulled out. Why would I still get 250Hz coming through the monitors when he talked or sang? Really the only way to remove this is to turn down his monitor channel. Then he can't hear himself.
Should I put the monitors on milk crates to bring them closer to the singer? Should I get better monitor EQ's.?The current ones are dual 15 band (forgot the brand)but not great ones. I haven't had this issue with other singers in the past, just this one guy. Was it just his voice? I want to fix this because the same band will be back in the future. If I left anything out, let me know. Thank you for any info.

Try trimming down the mic gain on the singer (and possibly any other open mic you have).  The mic may be too hot.  All things being relative, with lower mic gain, you can usually get a louder stage.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2012, 12:51:49 PM »

Try trimming down the mic gain on the singer (and possibly any other open mic you have).  The mic may be too hot.  All things being relative, with lower mic gain, you can usually get a louder stage.

Please explain what you mean or how this works.

Mac
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 01:04:39 PM »

Please explain what you mean or how this works.

Mac

If the mic is too hot, it will be overly sensitive to sound.  So, reduce the input gain on the mic channel.  When the gain is lowered, the monitor speakers (for his monitor) can be turned up so he can hear himself.

Ringing out the monitors for his channel would still be needed.  But adding the process lowering his mic gain should be considered part of (or at least as a candidate) for a solution.

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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 01:18:33 PM »

If the mic is too hot, it will be overly sensitive to sound.  So, reduce the input gain on the mic channel.  When the gain is lowered, the monitor speakers (for his monitor) can be turned up so he can hear himself.

Ringing out the monitors for his channel would still be needed.  But adding the process lowering his mic gain should be considered part of (or at least as a candidate) for a solution.

Robert....

When I first came on the PSW forums, I made the same assertion.  That was several years ago and the bruises have healed.


No matter how "hot" you have the mic, the laws of physics declare that "the loudest sound at the mic wins".  The actual fact is that a strong singer working a tight pattern mic very close combined with the monitor properly positioned "in the null" will allow you to run the input gain lower.

You're looking at it backwards.







 
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Patrick Tracy

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 01:18:47 PM »

If the mic is too hot, it will be overly sensitive to sound.  So, reduce the input gain on the mic channel.  When the gain is lowered, the monitor speakers (for his monitor) can be turned up so he can hear himself.

Ringing out the monitors for his channel would still be needed.  But adding the process lowering his mic gain should be considered part of (or at least as a candidate) for a solution.

Nope. Gain is gain; 3dB down at the pre and 3dB up at the amp yields no change in the overall gain or the susceptibility to feedback. The only way that can make a difference is if there's some other factor like distortion or dynamics processing in the chain.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:20:48 PM by Patrick Tracy »
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Samuel Rees

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2012, 01:43:33 PM »

When I first came on the PSW forums, I made the same assertion.  That was several years ago and the bruises have healed.

I had the same misconception, corrected not long after I started coming around here. Seems to be a soundman-myth that sticks around.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2012, 02:09:55 PM »

If the mic is too hot, it will be overly sensitive to sound.  So, reduce the input gain on the mic channel.  When the gain is lowered, the monitor speakers (for his monitor) can be turned up so he can hear himself.

Ringing out the monitors for his channel would still be needed.  But adding the process lowering his mic gain should be considered part of (or at least as a candidate) for a solution.

Explain how lowering the level at one end of the equation and raising it an equal amount at the other end results in a lower level.
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Robert Weston

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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2012, 02:13:54 PM »

I agree with what everyone has said.  And yes, 3db down on one item and 3db up on another is no change. 

Dick - your explanation of a tight mic pattern is dead on.  I'm lucky to work with bands who perform like this... rarely any mic issues.

The "hot" input gain I'm referencing is from past experience working with other bands whom turn the input pots full clockwise to get "the best sound out of the mic".  And they always had problems with feedback across many frequencies.  When I started working with the bands, I trimmed every mic'd input down to manageable levels and notched where I could - this fixed their feedback issues and they were able to keep their monitor speakers (wattage) where they liked it (loud).

The point I'm making is, I don't know how hot the OP runs the inputs, but from his explanation of the issues (especially with a Beta58), it sounded very similar to my past experiences... which was resolved by first trimming all the mic'd inputs.
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Re: Problem removing frequency in monitor
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2012, 02:13:54 PM »


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