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Author Topic: TOA HX5?  (Read 11677 times)

John Woodfield

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TOA HX5?
« on: November 27, 2012, 10:45:33 PM »

Junk?
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Tim Weaver

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 10:57:26 PM »

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Caleb Dueck

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 12:28:14 AM »

Application?
Expectations?

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AllenDeneau

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 03:08:37 AM »

Junk?

Depending on it's intended use it's a decent piece of gear. We installed a single HX5 and 2 of their 12" subs at my last Church and it took very little eq to get it sounding good.

The HX5 can not be externally bi-amped to create a tri-amp system with subs and it won't rip your head off with SPL but it's a clean and fairly versatile speaker.

It may get louder than I expected with more than a single HX5 but the subs are good for mid bass alone. We only had that system up for a little over a month before I left that Church. If I would've stayed, I'd have added another HX5 for a L/R hang and added another pair of their subs to be flown with the HX5's as mid bass and used a 3 way x-over.

The online version of EASE of TOA's site leads you to believe you can pad down each "box" in the HX5 individually for better pattern coverage but you can't. It's a single NL4 input to the internal x-over to supply power to each "box" in the speaker. There's also a thru NL4 for jumping to another HX5 in the hang.

It's limited in it's splay angles but it can be flown either vertically or horizontally to get the coverage you need. it "acts" like a line array in a way and ss you tighten up it's angles it the beam becomes more focused vertically and you start to lose a bit of outside coverage but not a ton. For our use, we needed to go vertical and when we got the best overall coverage we had holes in coverage in the very front corners of each side. Wasn't a worry for us as nobody sat there anyway.

All my processing was handled by the Peavey FX32 we already had at the Church. I used it in subwoofer mode and split the signal right at the board. I used the boards x-over, PEQ and limiters and then ran out to the amp. The HX5 and the 2 subs were run from a single QSC GX7. it was clean and plenty loud for the congregation and type of service they have. Their worship service was a piano, keyboard, electric guitar and @ 10 vocalists. If we would've had a full worship band, I'd have wanted at least another HX5, another amp and subs. I would've then had a L/R hang with a 12" sub flown with each HX5 for mid bass for a bit better warmth.

The person who set up the sound originally is on the Church board and when they finally addressed the coverage issue, they decided they wanted new and my predecessor asked me to look into this system. I used the tools they had online and talked to their engineer and rep and came to the conclusion it's gonna be a pretty good fit, and it really was..

Overall I was really impressed with it's natural sound. Didn't take long to get dialed in and was clean. I would love to hear a system with multiple HX5s and a real sub system to see what it does.. I have contemplated buying a couple pairs of the HX5s for my company and trying them on various events to see how they sound..

Hope that helps..
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Allen D.
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John Woodfield

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 08:27:25 AM »

Thanks, so they would be an improvement over the Bose 802 III?
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Bob Leonard

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 09:14:36 AM »

Not for home stereo where the Bose belong.
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AllenDeneau

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 10:17:35 AM »

Thanks, so they would be an improvement over the Bose 802 III?

Ha ha Bob, I agree.

John, I'm by far the expert in system design but again depending on it's application I say yes. But then again, I've never really been a Bose fan...

What are you doing with your system now? Is this a portable system or a fixed installation? Inside or outside venues... Tell us more about what you are needing and what you have now for a better answer.

In short, yes I believe they sound a LOT better than the Bose 802's. Will they be the right choice for you, can't say....

Hope that helps
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Allen D.
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John Woodfield

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 12:57:16 PM »

Ha ha Bob, I agree.

John, I'm by far the expert in system design but again depending on it's application I say yes. But then again, I've never really been a Bose fan...

What are you doing with your system now? Is this a portable system or a fixed installation? Inside or outside venues... Tell us more about what you are needing and what you have now for a better answer.

In short, yes I believe they sound a LOT better than the Bose 802's. Will they be the right choice for you, can't say....

Hope that helps

House of worship, seats 425 two bose 802 III stacked in the center flown paired with some 18" subs on the floor.
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AllenDeneau

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 03:29:21 PM »

House of worship, seats 425 two bose 802 III stacked in the center flown paired with some 18" subs on the floor.

I'm certainly not an integrator nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn  Express last night nor do I play one on TV so please take my experience with them as it is, a short term experience..

While I do believe they sound better, cleaner and smoother than the 802's they may be a sllight step up or a slight step down or sideways depending on your situation.

425 is a decent crowd, not big but certainly not small like my past Church of 60 attendees.. What is your worship service like? Full band? Partial? etc....

I'd guess that you're not looking for 105dB at 80' back with multiple guitars and stacks type of sound with what your current system is but I'm only guessing.

Your room size and layout along with the type of worship service will dictate if the HX5 is the best fit. For my previous Church, it was a great fit.

What's the reason for the upgrade?

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Allen D.
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John Woodfield

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 08:45:10 PM »

I'm certainly not an integrator nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn  Express last night nor do I play one on TV so please take my experience with them as it is, a short term experience..

While I do believe they sound better, cleaner and smoother than the 802's they may be a sllight step up or a slight step down or sideways depending on your situation.

425 is a decent crowd, not big but certainly not small like my past Church of 60 attendees.. What is your worship service like? Full band? Partial? etc....

I'd guess that you're not looking for 105dB at 80' back with multiple guitars and stacks type of sound with what your current system is but I'm only guessing.

Your room size and layout along with the type of worship service will dictate if the HX5 is the best fit. For my previous Church, it was a great fit.

What's the reason for the upgrade?

The short throw of the 802's has been my main issue. If I run program levels at 92db I get multiple complaints. I try to stay around the 88-90 area at max. I also have some dead spots on the edges with the 802's that it appears I could overcome. If I set each speaker to be at 45 degrees I will have a full 180 degrees of coverage opposed to the 120 degree the 802's give me.

My main complaint with the 802's beyond the throw is the highs seem quite harsh. 5k-8k is no mans land on those boxes.

So longer throw, smoother response, better coverage would be the objectives.

In my mind, it is surprising to me that I can maintain the level to where the 802's are too loud so I don't expect much issue in that regard.
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AllenDeneau

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »

The short throw of the 802's has been my main issue. If I run program levels at 92db I get multiple complaints. I try to stay around the 88-90 area at max. I also have some dead spots on the edges with the 802's that it appears I could overcome. If I set each speaker to be at 45 degrees I will have a full 180 degrees of coverage opposed to the 120 degree the 802's give me.

My main complaint with the 802's beyond the throw is the highs seem quite harsh. 5k-8k is no mans land on those boxes.

So longer throw, smoother response, better coverage would be the objectives.

In my mind, it is surprising to me that I can maintain the level to where the 802's are too loud so I don't expect much issue in that regard.

I'd suggest talking to TOA and have them help you with EASE plots and such. Although we didn't use an integrator for the install, I'm still a big advocate of getting one involved as they'll save you time, money and most of all, headaches, down the road.

From what you're telling us, minus the worship arrangement, I'm inclined to think they may be a good fit for you but only you know your crowd, room and needs..

I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe the Bose products with much in the way of hi frequency response let alone harsh, is there a severe eq bump in the 4kHz-6kHz range?

The HX5 has dome tweeters, much like most home stereo speakers have so they'll tend to be a bit smoother BUT you won't have the projection that a horn has.
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Allen D.
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John Woodfield

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 08:05:56 PM »

I'd suggest talking to TOA and have them help you with EASE plots and such. Although we didn't use an integrator for the install, I'm still a big advocate of getting one involved as they'll save you time, money and most of all, headaches, down the road.

From what you're telling us, minus the worship arrangement, I'm inclined to think they may be a good fit for you but only you know your crowd, room and needs..

I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe the Bose products with much in the way of hi frequency response let alone harsh, is there a severe eq bump in the 4kHz-6kHz range?

The HX5 has dome tweeters, much like most home stereo speakers have so they'll tend to be a bit smoother BUT you won't have the projection that a horn has.

Hmmm...

The Bose Controller does all kinds of crazy things, I believe there is a sever bump in that range.

Would anyone be able to comment how these compare to say the Carvin TRx series? Or perhaps how these compare to other line array type boxes currently on the market?
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 08:12:22 PM »

Why a line(ish) array?  Why not something like a Fulcrum CX12xx?  A competent contractor would be first recommendation.
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Brad Weber

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 11:45:42 AM »

A competent contractor would be first recommendation.
Or a competent consultant.  ;)
 
In fact, if they are not necessarily selling and/or installing the product then the Contractor would probably be acting as a Consultant.
 
House of worship, seats 425 two bose 802 III stacked in the center flown paired with some 18" subs on the floor.
What is the room shape and size?  How high are the speakers flown?  What are the room finishes?  Where is the stage?  What type of services and what is on stage?
 
While the vertical pattern of the 802 Series III is apparently as small as 30 degrees at around 3kHz, it also seems to be 80-85 degrees at 1kHz and 4kHz and 100 degrees nominal, so I am particularly curious as how a situation that lead someone to apply stacked 802s would relate to using the TOA HX-5 or a line array which are generally used where a narrower vertical pattern is desired?
 
The short throw of the 802's has been my main issue. If I run program levels at 92db I get multiple complaints. I try to stay around the 88-90 area at max. I also have some dead spots on the edges with the 802's that it appears I could overcome. If I set each speaker to be at 45 degrees I will have a full 180 degrees of coverage opposed to the 120 degree the 802's give me.
Be careful of assumptions made based on a single nominal coverage pattern.  For example, the HX-5 is a nominal 100 degree horizontal pattern but the actual pattern apparently varies from 360 degrees at the low end of its response to around 50 degrees at a bit above 6kHz.
 
In comparison, the Bose 802 Series III is a nominal 120 degree horizontal coverage but seems to vary from close to 200 degrees to as small as 20 degrees at around 6kHz.  The design of the 802 also results in some potentially significant lobing from about 2kHz to 10kHz, the 4kHz pattern noted above is a result of that as at 4kHz the horizontal response appears to be 6dB down at 10 degrees off axis and almost 12dB down at 20 degrees off axis but rises back to only a couple of dB down around 40 degrees off axis.  And at 2kHz the response 20-30 degrees off axis is 4 or 5 dB greater than it is on axis.
 
The point of all this is really that a single number nominal coverage does not necessarily tell the whole story and much more so with some speakers than with others.  This relates to both the coverage of a single speaker and how multiple speakers may array together.
 
Aso note that depending on the speaker locations, seating configuration, room finishes, etc. you may have to balance coverage with the energy hitting the walls and ceiling.  While the goal would likely be good coverage of the seating and minimal energy hitting the room surfaces, in many situations a compromise may be required.
 
 
On the HX-5, it's easy to think it is something it isn't.  An entire 'array' is four elements that are a total of about 21-1/2" high so it may be easier to think of it in terms of a compact box with a variable 15 degree, 30 degree, 45 degree or 60 degree vertical pattern rather than it being a line array.  Compared to the Bose 802 Series III it is probably not going to provide a significant increase in response or output, possibly a bit less low end and bit more output which depending the rest of the system and your use may essentially offset one another.  But the HX-5 may provide a more consistent and controlled pattern, especially more controlled in the vertical axis.
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John Woodfield

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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 07:44:11 PM »

In a line array the boxes are horizontal. I should clarify that I am looking at this from a vertical perspective. 100 degrees nominal flown horizontal will be inadequate.
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Re: TOA HX5?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 07:44:11 PM »


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