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Author Topic: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000+ people @ 70' wide x 95' deep ballroom  (Read 2079 times)

Sean Chen

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Hello, we are coming up to do sound for a conference in Indiana in a hotel ballroom 70'' wide x 95' deep, over 1000 people. The hosting organization has a pair of EV Eliminator Doubles (dual 15).  Style of music is Christian contemporary.

I used this setup 2 years ago in the same venue for the same event, and did not like the way it sounded - scooped. Attempt to EQ-boost mid-high resulted in lousy gain-before-feedback. I recently looked more into the spec, and found that the compression driver itself has recommended HP of 5 kHz, but the Eliminator Double crosses at 1.7 kHz.

Is there anything that can be done to doctor this setup? A compression driver with stronger mid-range? It's a 1-3/8" screw-on horn mounting. Would something like the Peavey RX22 or Eminence NSD2005 be a step in the right direction?

Or should I recommend them to rent some larger scale setup? If so, what's the best bang for the buck for this venue/application?

Your comments are greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:43:03 pm by Sean Chen »
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dick rees

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 10:50:42 pm »

Hello, we are coming up to do sound for a conference in Indiana in a hotel ballroom 100' wide x 100' deep, about 1000 people. The hosting organization has a pair of EV Eliminator Doubles (dual 15).  Style of music is Christian contemporary.

I used this setup 2 years ago in the same venue for the same event, and did not like the way it sounded - scooped. Attempt to EQ-boost mid-high resulted in lousy gain-before-feedback. I recently looked more into the spec, and found that the compression driver itself has recommended HP of 5 kHz, but the Eliminator Double crosses at 1.7 kHz.

Is there anything that can be done to doctor this setup? A compression driver with stronger mid-range? It's a 1-3/8" screw-on horn mounting. Would something like the Peavey RX22 or Eminence NSD2005 be a step in the right direction?

Or should I recommend them to rent some larger scale setup? If so, what's the best bang for the buck for this venue/application?

Your comments are greatly appreciated.

No doubt.  You'll need something much more effective than a couple of cheap dual 15's to cover that area,  or even a significant portion of it.  A good compromise between price, ease of deployment and effectiveness might be a ground stacked "line array".  (Quotes to take into consideration the loose popular definition of LA.)

I don't know what there is to rent, but around here the best, most effective rig I can lay my hands on is probably a Cobra II rig. 
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boburtz

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 11:29:37 pm »

I recently looked more into the spec, and found that the compression driver itself has recommended HP of 5 kHz, but the Eliminator Double crosses at 1.7 kHz.
Where did you get that spec? That compression driver is the same one used in MANY EV mid-range products, and has been for many years (even still). It is correctly crossed over at 1.7kHz. Nevertheless, that pair of speakers is not capable of covering that kind of area. Like Dick said, rent a rig that will cover that space without blowing up. 100' wide is plenty wide to use a line array product, and at 100' throw distance, you will need something that has a lot of energy in the high frequencies, as well as some decent subwoofers if your source material has any low frequency requirement, as it sounds like it does. I would look into cross-renting and use those eliminators for side fills or something.
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Sean Chen

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 07:12:51 am »

Where did you get that spec? That compression driver is the same one used in MANY EV mid-range products, and has been for many years (even still). It is correctly crossed over at 1.7kHz.

LINK
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 05:43:02 pm by Mac Kerr »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 11:42:34 am »


Is there anything that can be done to doctor this setup? A compression driver with stronger mid-range? It's a 1-3/8" screw-on horn mounting. Would something like the Peavey RX22 or Eminence NSD2005 be a step in the right direction?

Or should I recommend them to rent some larger scale setup? If so, what's the best bang for the buck for this venue/application?

Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Hi Sean.  This is sort of a "how long is a piece of string?" question.  If you're going for any kind of contemporary worship feel with reasonable coverage and volume with the gear you have access to, you're trying to pull a fishing boat with a motorcycle - it might move, but it isn't going to be pretty.

Everyone is looking for a shortcut around the reality that doing quality sound, lighting and video are expensive.  There's some room around the margin for customizing which compromises you prefer to take, but looking at the fact that pretty much every sound company looks the same in the big picture - lots of capital investment, lots of logistical investment, lots of labor - indicates that the low hanging fruit has been eaten long ago.

In a typical 100' X 100' ballroom with 14' or so ceilings, 1000 people and moderate volume (90dBA/100dBC or so), I'd want a flown system with appropriate coverage for the room.  If I was buying gear to do shows like this and wanted to do it well, I'd look into a small to medium format line array, 6-8 boxes/side plus 2/side professional quality dual 18" or equivalent subs.

If being loud is more important than good coverage, you could probably survive the event with a 2/side JBL SRX/STX, EV QRX or the like medium quality trap box over at least one pro quality dual 18" sub/side.

The expectations and the financial and technical realities of your situation will determine what's possible.  If the current gear is the best that can be sourced, let the event leadership know that it's inadequate and the event quality will suffer.

Realistically, this sounds like a great opportunity to get to know some of the local sound companies and see what they can do for you.  There are more than a few Indy-based Labsters.  You might want to post in the Marketplace section of the forum describing your event and soliciting bids.




For what it's worth, it seems there are a couple delineations in event size that trigger significant cost increases.  An event with 250 people or fewer and moderate expectations can usually be reasonably handled by your favorite speaker on a stick and pair of small subwoofers. 

Moving to 500 people is significantly more difficult - more subs, more coverage problems, usually about 4X the money to do a 500 person gig as a 250 person gig.  Even so, this is in the realm of possibility for many small operators for a couple tens of thousands of dollars.

1000 people is quite a different story compared to 500 people.  To have any sort of even coverage you need to be flown, which for a portable system usually means a line array, not to mention Genie lifts on the low end, or better yet truss and motors, heavy power distribution, etc.  This size event is very difficult to do with any quality with less than $100K of gear, and that's still going to leave you wanting more. 

Most organizations (and many small sound companies) trying to operate at this level are often better off writing a check to an existing sound co that does events of this caliber, as the capital can't be amortized over only a couple events a year, and screwing the event up means you look dumb in front of a lot of people.  I suppose the up side is if the event is really terrible, the next time you try to do it, you might only have 500 people, which is a lot easier to handle technically.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 11:54:47 am by TJ (Tom) Cornish »
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Tim Weaver

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 02:31:50 pm »

Hi Sean.  This is sort of a "how long is a piece of string?" question.  If you're going for any kind of contemporary worship feel with reasonable coverage and volume with the gear you have access to, you're trying to pull a fishing boat with a motorcycle - it might move, but it isn't going to be pretty.

Everyone is looking for a shortcut around the reality that doing quality sound, lighting and video are expensive.  There's some room around the margin for customizing which compromises you prefer to take, but looking at the fact that pretty much every sound company looks the same in the big picture - lots of capital investment, lots of logistical investment, lots of labor - indicates that the low hanging fruit has been eaten long ago.

In a typical 100' X 100' ballroom with 14' or so ceilings, 1000 people and moderate volume (90dBA/100dBC or so), I'd want a flown system with appropriate coverage for the room.  If I was buying gear to do shows like this and wanted to do it well, I'd look into a small to medium format line array, 6-8 boxes/side plus 2/side professional quality dual 18" or equivalent subs.

If being loud is more important than good coverage, you could probably survive the event with a 2/side JBL SRX/STX, EV QRX or the like medium quality trap box over at least one pro quality dual 18" sub/side.

The expectations and the financial and technical realities of your situation will determine what's possible.  If the current gear is the best that can be sourced, let the event leadership know that it's inadequate and the event quality will suffer.

Realistically, this sounds like a great opportunity to get to know some of the local sound companies and see what they can do for you.  There are more than a few Indy-based Labsters.  You might want to post in the Marketplace section of the forum describing your event and soliciting bids.




For what it's worth, it seems there are a couple delineations in event size that trigger significant cost increases.  An event with 250 people or fewer and moderate expectations can usually be reasonably handled by your favorite speaker on a stick and pair of small subwoofers. 

Moving to 500 people is significantly more difficult - more subs, more coverage problems, usually about 4X the money to do a 500 person gig as a 250 person gig.  Even so, this is in the realm of possibility for many small operators for a couple tens of thousands of dollars.

1000 people is quite a different story compared to 500 people.  To have any sort of even coverage you need to be flown, which for a portable system usually means a line array, not to mention Genie lifts on the low end, or better yet truss and motors, heavy power distribution, etc.  This size event is very difficult to do with any quality with less than $100K of gear, and that's still going to leave you wanting more. 

Most organizations (and many small sound companies) trying to operate at this level are often better off writing a check to an existing sound co that does events of this caliber, as the capital can't be amortized over only a couple events a year, and screwing the event up means you look dumb in front of a lot of people.  I suppose the up side is if the event is really terrible, the next time you try to do it, you might only have 500 people, which is a lot easier to handle technically.   ;)


This ^

I really wish there was a "like" button on this forum. This post would be the most liked by a long shot.
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Steve Milner

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 03:06:36 pm »


This ^

I really wish there was a "like" button on this forum. This post would be the most liked by a long shot.

 +1

boburtz

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 01:16:54 pm »

LINK
Hmm. From what I understand, the DH2010A is the exact same driver as their DH3, which has a min recommended crossover point of 2kHz. I find it odd that they would build a finished product utilizing a component that doesn't have the correct specs for the task at hand. At any rate, the bottleneck of your situation is not the hf crossover point...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 05:44:06 pm by Mac Kerr »
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Sean Chen

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 01:42:08 pm »

Thanks for the responses. We used a professional theatre last year that had flown Vertex and VRX for front cluster. It was more than adequate, as the theatre was designed for 2000+ people. Unfortunately due to schedule conflict, we weren't able to use the theatre this year and go back to the ballroom.

Without going to lift mechanism, I indicated that the bare minimum to provide speech coverage is 2 VRX + 2 18" sub per side. Looks like the Dynacord stack is more scaleable, if available.

Please feel free to message me if you have a suitable package. Thanks.
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Greg Cameron

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Re: EV Eliminator Doubles for 1000 people @ 100' x 100' ballroom
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 04:12:59 pm »

Hmm. From what I understand, the DH2010A is the exact same driver as their DH3, which has a min recommended crossover point of 2kHz. I find it odd that they would build a finished product utilizing a component that doesn't have the correct specs for the task at hand.

I was examining the specs sheets for the DH3/2010A vs. the 2010A only sheet. The DH3 cut sheet is a year newer. The only difference I see is that the 2010A sheet that's a year older which specs the higher recommended crossover point also shows 10 more watts of average power on the 2 hour test. So it's what I figured: you can run the driver lower but don't throw as much power at it. Any compression driver that's operated at a higher crossover point than the minimum recommended can usually take more power, sometime a lot more. The TAD TD-2001 compression driver I've used are only rated at 30 watts used from 500Hz on up. But crossed at 8kHz, they can really boogie and handle 2-3 times that.
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