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Author Topic: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout  (Read 6586 times)

Steve Hurt

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(Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« on: November 06, 2012, 07:43:04 am »

Hey all,

I'm putting on a mini sound man get together in Indianapolis

The group is a facebook group called "Indy Sound Techs"
99% of us will be from central Indiana, but all are welcome
Please message me if you intend to come, especially if you want to bring gear.
Space for gear is limited, so we need to know in advance what is coming
Don't hesitate to contact me via PM, or e-mail
steve at floodstagestudio dot com

The event is on Monday November 19, from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.
It's at the Irving Theater at 5505 E Washington Street, Indianapolis IN 46219

We are focusing on comparing speakers that "mere mortals" use in club situations.
SRX/QRX/Yorkville U15/UCS1/etc etc

A very  short description of what we'll be doing is

    Monday, November 19, 2012
    8:00am until 5:00pm

Indy Sound Techs group gathering to listen to club size PA gear

1) FOH speakers - compare rigs in use in clubs
1-b (assuming time and interest) Sub comparison
2) Monitor shootout - compare monitors being used in clubs
3) Kik drum mic demo - Mic up a drum kit and try different kik drum combos and see what works

I'll try to post a more detailed description later, but I wanted to get up a note about the event now.
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Steve Hurt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 07:56:39 am »

Some of the speakers confirmed for the FOH portion are

- SRX 728/722
- SRX728/725
- QSC KW 181x2 / QSC KW 153 (powered)
- JTR Orbit Shifter / Triple 12x
- still working on QRX 212/218
- U15/U215 coming  (working on UCS1's)
- Mackie swa1801 x 2 / sa1530z
- Community RS220 tops / Wharfdale QRX subs

Jeff from JTR says he will be there with his new Neosis speakers!!!

-----------------------------------------------

Boards that will be there:

-X32
- Studio Live 24.4.2
- LS9 16

May have an extra X32 set up later in the day

----------------------------------------------

Monitors (just getting started on this)

- SRX 712
- Yamaha Club 15
- Mackie SRM450
- JTR Triple 8

----------------------------------------------

Kick drum micing

- D6
- Beta 52
- D112
- Beta 91
- SM57
- etc etc
 
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Patrick Moore

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(Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 09:24:38 am »

This sounds like fun.  Wish I still lived in Bloomington, would take a ride up for this. I'll pass it along to some freelancing friends up there.

John Halliburton

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 09:09:25 pm »


Please message me if you intend to come, especially if you want to bring gear.
Space for gear is limited, so we need to know in advance what is coming
Don't hesitate to contact me via PM, or e-mail
steve at floodstagestudio dot com

Steve,

Jeff Parmanian asked if I wanted to come down with him, and I might.  If so, I possibly could bring one of the BMS coaxial wedges designed by myself, Curtis List, and Jack Arnott.

Best regards,

John

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Steve Hurt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 09:11:57 pm »

Steve,

Jeff Parmanian asked if I wanted to come down with him, and I might.  If so, I possibly could bring one of the BMS coaxial wedges designed by myself, Curtis List, and Jack Arnott.

Best regards,

John

Please do come, and please do bring the wedge. 
I'd love to hear it and I'm sure others would as well!
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Steve Hurt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 02:29:41 pm »

This thing is shaping up nicely!!!!!!



    Here's the current lineup for the

    "Indy Sound Techs - Speaker Shootout"

    ________________________________

    FOH Speaker Shootout

    Rig 1 Mackie swa1801 - sa1530z
    Rig 2 JBL MRX 528 - Yorkville Unity U215
    Rig 3 VRX918s - VRX932LA
    Rig 4 PRX 618xlf - Yamaha DSR 112
    Rig 5 EV QRX 218 - JBL SRX 715
    Rig 6 SRX 728 - SRX 722
    Rig 7 Klipsch KPT682 sub - KPT362 top
    Rig 8 Klipsch KPT682sub - Yorkville U15
    Rig 9 EV MTL-1x - EV dual 12 tops
    Rig 10 Wharfdale QRX - Community RS220
    Rig 11 SRX 728 - SRX 725
    Rig 12 Orbit Shifter - Neosis3TX
    Rig 13 Orbit Shifter - Neosis2AX
    Rig 14 Growler - Triple 8
    Rig 15 QSC KW181 (x2) - QSC KW153
    Rig 16 Yorkville UCS1 - EV QRX212

    ______________________________________

    Monitor Test

    P (assive) model owner
    A (active/powered)

    P SRX 712m
    P JTR Triple 8
    P JTR Neosis2AX
    A JBL PRX415M
    P JBL MRX 512m
    A JBL PRX 615m
    P Peavey DTH Wedge
    A QSC K-12
    A Samson Live 612m
    P Yamaha S15V
    P Custom-made (John Halliburton)

    Still need a few more monitors - message me if you want to bring one
    __________________________________________________ ____________________

    Kick Drum Test

    ATM 250
    Beta 52
    Beta 91
    D-12
    D-112
    D-6
    M-88
    MD-421
    N/D 868
    ______________________________________

    Consoles
    X32 - FOH
    SL24.4.2 - Kick Drum
    LS9-16 - Monitors

    X32 (#2) - Demo
    ______________________________________

« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 02:31:24 pm by Steve Hurt »
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Mac Kerr

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 08:33:36 pm »

Hey all,

I'm putting on a mini sound man get together in Indianapolis

Anyone form any opinions they can share at this event? Getting to go hear the speakers in action can be a real eye opener, I'm sure there are lots of folks here who would like to know how the people who were able to attend thought the speakers fared.

Mac
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Steve Hurt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2012, 08:49:30 pm »

Anyone form any opinions they can share at this event? Getting to go hear the speakers in action can be a real eye opener, I'm sure there are lots of folks here who would like to know how the people who were able to attend thought the speakers fared.

Mac

I'll post my thoughts in a day or so.  (Nothing scientific, just opinions)
We had a good day, with better attendance than I had expected

I encourage others to do this.  It's worth every bit of the exhaustion it caused!
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Scott Bolt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 10:30:38 am »

I'll post my thoughts in a day or so.  (Nothing scientific, just opinions)
We had a good day, with better attendance than I had expected

I encourage others to do this.  It's worth every bit of the exhaustion it caused!

I am looking forward to your review.  I have the XLF-DSR rig myself.  It looks like this rig was surrounded by bigger and more expensive rigs, but I am interested in how you thought it stood up ;)
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Steve Hurt

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Re: (Indianapolis) Indy Sound Tech Speaker Shootout
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 02:28:46 am »

Here are my notes from the shootout:
 

Indianapolis Sound Techs Speaker Shootout      -      FOH  notes
_________________________________________________________________________

The event was held at the Irving Theater at 5505 E Washington St in Indianapolis.   
The Irving is an old movie house.  The room is a 40' wide x 100' deep with a 16-20' ceiling (open rafters to the underside of a pitched roof).  Floor is concrete.  There is a stage at the front.  A 30' x 40' flat area is in front of the stage and then the floor has a gentle slope up to the entrance area.

We had 12 rigs so there was not enough room to set them all across the 40' dimension of the room , so we split them in 2 groups across the sidewalls facing each other. 
The rigs were all the same distance off the wall behind them and no speaker had a wall closer than 10' to it's side.  Any cancellation with back walls should be shared by all and sidewall cancellation should be nil.

We asked that people use minimal DSP on their rigs, so we could compare as close to what the factory intended as possible.

Each person introduced their rig.  Then we played the same CD track through the rig for a minute or so at approx 100DB.  There was a SMAART rig there with a mic placed midway in the room and we used that for a DB meter.

Notes on the rigs:

I could do fine with any of these rigs on an average club gig.  My notes are not scientific, my ears are not golden, and my memory is dusty, so take anything I say with a grain of salt!  Thanks!

 
Rig 1    Wharfdale 2 x 18 subs / Community RS220 tops

Wharfdale 2 x 18 subs   -   Sounded like a good 2 x 18 front loaded sub - Nothing stood out to me, good or bad, about the subs - I assume thats a good thing -
   
Community RS220 - Small powerful horn loaded top boxes - I believe about 60 pounds - I've heard people say the RS220 need a low mid box between it and the sub, but from what I heard at the shootout, I'd leave the low mid box at home - Good clarity and punch - my guess is the tops (as small as they look) would outrun the subs  I'd have no problem using this rig in a club.

Rig 2    Klipsch KPT682 sub / KPT362 top

KPT682 sub - The Klipsch sub had good output.  Did not go low but seemed to be efficient and able to push an 80 hz kick drum hard.  Wouldn't complain if I did a walk on gig and this sub was there.

KPT362 top - The tops didn't do much for me.  Output seemed okay, but the horn wasn't very even sounding.  I could get through the night with them at a club gig, but I wouldn't ask for them.

Rig 3    Klipsch KPT682sub / Yorkville U15
KPT682sub    see above. 

U15 - The U15 sounded pretty good to me.  The SMAART rig said there was a big mid bump (that I did not hear to be honest - I was involved in setting up other parts of the day while this went on).  Definitely a lot more detail and clarity compared to the Klipsch tops we listened to right before them.  This rig would do just fine in a club.  I like the U15s.

Rig 4    Yorkville Unity U215 / JBL MRX528
MRX 528 - I've worked with them before, so not much to say about them.  They sound good within their limit (which 100 db is well inside of).  They don't get real loud though. 

U215 - The rig had a tiny bit of woof-y-ness to me (probably because the DSP was flat)  I preferred the sound of the U15 over the U215 because of this.  I'm sure with DSP on, or if you pushed the box to its limits, that the extra 15 would be helpful.  Both are good though.  Good detail on the highs and mids.

My main gripe with the U215 is the horn in the center of the box.  The box is way too heavy to pole mount, and the horn isn't high enough when they sit on a sub, so to me, they're an "install only" speaker and have no use in a portable club rig.

All that said, I'd be happy to work with this rig (with DSP) in a club setting, assuming I could get the tops up high enough         


Rig 5    Mackie swa1801 (x 2) / sa1530z
SWA 1802 subs - They aren't  tight, don't go particularly low, but they do make a lot of noise withing their range.   

The SA1530z has a very noticable HF boost (even to my 54 year old ears).  Like the subs, they are not hifi, but they do their job and make a lot of noise.  I'll bet that high boost works well with electronic techno dance stuff. 

Basically, both the sub and the top are the "10-year-old-Chevy-pickup" PA.  It isn't new, shiny, pretty but it will get the job done and is completely capable of sounding decent and eliciting "turn that s*** down comments.  (And I've heard Aaron make this rig sound just fine so I know it's capable)
 

Rig 6    Growler / Triple 8    One of the  2 small rigs   (my rig - so owner bias is possible)

Growlers - Nice little horn loaded sub - Sounds like a horn loaded sub which is not good or bad, just different from a front loaded 18.  I can't explain the difference.  You have to hear it.  I like it.  They go down to about 40 and keep up w/pretty much any single 18 front loaded box I've heard.  Good sub for the small gigs.  (New Growlers are 3db louder)

Triple 8's - The T-8 didn't fare so well - I thought the highs broke up a bit (and I'm not used to hearing them do that).  They were run w/an I-Tech w/DSP on.  I set the DSP by ear in a club a while back by ear for that venue so it's possible my DSP settings may (or may not) be at fault.  Wish I had run it flat.  My old laptop was stolen, and my replacement laptop didn't have System Architect up and running at the shootout, so I couldn't turn the DSP off
People mentioned that they thought the pattern was really wide on the Triple 8's and I agree.  (Wider than the advertised 90 degree coverage)    I've used these with success in many clubs and will continue to do so
 
   
Rig 7    PRX 618xlf / Yamaha DSR 112      One of the 2 small rigs

PRX618XLF  - I liked this subs sound - Not stupid loud, but it sounds good and goes pretty low  - More traditional front loaded sub sound.  If you have MRX/PRX 518's, these are night and day better sounding subs.  I do believe the Growler to have more 2-3 db more output (from my experience with both, outside the shootout).

I liked the DSR 112 tops quite a bit.  Similar in size and shape to a SRX712 (small), good definition and output.  I definitely wouldn't use them without subs, but when paired with the PRX618xlf, they made a good compact small club rig.  I liked this rig more than I thought I would and would be happy to use it in a small club.


Rig 8    EV MTL-1x / EV dual 12 tops
The MTL-1x doesn't seem to go super low, but it wasn't flabby at all.  Solid sound across it's range and it felt like it had tons of headroom to go from where we tested.  Solid 2 x 18 club sub, especially in the 60-80 range, my guess is these will pound out the rock all day and night.

EV Dual 12 tops - These tops are what Mike Ottinger (their owner) calls QRX prototypes.  He built them w/2 - EV DL12X woofers, a EV HP 64 horn, and a (2 inch) B&C 750 driver.  The tops are bi-amped so no passive crossover.  These boxes rock.  Not harsh or sparkly/hifi, but they sounded good.  I liked them better than the QRX212, although that may be because they're bi-amped.  Mike did a good job with these boxes. I'd love to mix on this rig.


Rig 9    QRX218 / EV QRX212
QRX218 - The EV sub sounds good.  It's one of the most compact front loaded 2 x 18 subs out there.   My guess is it is not as loud as the MTL-1.  It did seem to go a little lower.  Good club subs.

QRX212 - I've heard these many, many, times before in clubs and always like them.  In this room, between the "QRX prototypes" and the SRX 722, the difference between a 1" horn and a 2" horn was very obvious.  The 1" EV horn has a sizzle where bigger horns honk (the SRX honked a bit - Mikes EV's didn't seem to have that issue, he probably had it dialed out in the DSP).  Both can be managed, it's just different.  These are good speakers.  Didn't wow me in this room, but I know them well, and they're a quality box.  I've mixed on this rig before and hope to again.


Rig 10    SRX 728 / SRX 722
SRX 728 - This seems to be considered the gold standard in Indianapolis clubs.  There's a reason for that, they're good subs.  They get loud, go low, and they're big and heavy.  Boom.  Short review, good subs.

SRX 722 - Good box - When I hear QRX212's in clubs I always think I like them better than 722's, but I've heard the 722's at shootouts twice and both times I preferred the 722's.  That is not a slap at the QRX212, it's a compliment to the SRX722.  There is some horn honk but you can get it under control w/DSP
Very nice rig - Very happy to mix on it


Rig 11    Orbit Shifter / Neosis3TX      (My subs - owner bias is likely)

Orbit Shifters - Got a lot of attention. They go fairly low (37hz is the -3db number) and get very loud doing it.  We only used one at a time during the FOH test, but I was asked a number of times if they were both on when it was only one.  They are loud.  They did rattle their casters a lot.  Will be replacing the casters w/non rattling casters (Brian Wynn showed me some on his VRX) Should be an easy fix.

Neosis 3TX - This box was pretty impressive to me.  They look like toys next to my Triple 12's but they out ran them easily.  Extremely small size.  High output.  Good clarity.  Bit of a horn bump at 800 hz.  I ran them loud at the end of the day and the horns would not break up.  I was also able to cure the horn bump w/a 2db cut at 800 hz.  Sounded very good to me after that.   They really need a grill over the horn.  Other than that, very impressive box

Note: The 3TX tested had cutouts for weight around the horn.  The production models do not have the cutouts - sides are solid.

Rig 11 or 12 B    Orbit Shifter - Triple 12-X

Already talked about the orbit shifter

Triple 12X - 2 x 12 box w/1" x 12" Coaxial Hi/Mid on top - Clarity/output not as strong as the Neosis 3TX  - High end seemed lacking when run right after hearing the 3TX. 
I think they're good sounding boxes, but I've done a hundred or so gigs with them so I'm biased!
Maybe we can stuff that N3TX horn in the T12!!

Rig 12    Orbit Shifter - Neosis2AX
Already talked about the Orbit Shifter ... Boom

Neosis 2AX - Nice box.  Probably would have drawn more attention if the 3TX wasn't there to overshadow it.  It's a 2 way box.  Horn is between the woofers drivers so it needs to be pole mounted to the horn up.  At 39 pounds, that shouldn't be an issue.  The his and mids weren't as strong as the 3TX , but it was comparable to the Triple 12 and better sounding than the Triple 8 which I assume it is intended to replace.  It does have a full grill which the 3TX is lacking.   


Rig 13    2 - VRX 918 / 2 -VRX 932

VRX 918 (x2)  - These subs sounded good, in control, and somewhat understated.  Didn't really draw attention to themselves.  That's not intended as criticism, it's more a statement about crossover settings on the other rigs.  The VRX 918 uses the same drivers as the SRX 718's and 728's, so they can and will bring the thunder if asked.  I assume the difference is JBL's presets have response set flat, not w/a 10 db bass boost like most club guys set.  The 918's will produce volume, low, loud, and tight, and will do it all day.  We just didn't hammer them to prove it.  I'd be happy to use these guys.  (And their nifty anti-rattle casters don't rattle!)
 
VRX 932 (x 2) - When they fired these up, I thought they were a bit harsh (we were fairly close to them at 16 to 20'.  Brian hit the shading button and they sounded immediately better to everyone.  They still seemed bright, but SMAART says they were ruler flat, so a big part of it might have been just standing too close to them.  The rig obviously was not pushed at all.  The HF seemed like it had headroom for weeks compared to our club rigs (there are three 1" HF drivers in each box so there is a lot of potential for noise making in that rig.  Good looking rig.  30 x 100 degree pattern as demo'd.  I'd be very happy to mix on this rig.

My guess is the only real downside to this rig would be paying for it!
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