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Author Topic: Midas Pro Series Console Questions  (Read 65263 times)

Brian Wynn

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #170 on: April 03, 2013, 06:35:13 pm »

And for us first time Midas users, how we go about getting the new software.

Also, is there a list of the fixes and additions for the new release?

Thanks!!!!

+1
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Jason Kelly

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #171 on: April 04, 2013, 03:52:27 am »

I asked this a long time ago and this is the response I received.

When muting VCA's the channel contribution mute lights should indicate a mute state some how.  Blink on stay on solid.

This is a long and twisting road, so I will try and keep this as brief as I can. Unfortunately as with all things (especially when it comes to software) there are limitations, many of which may not become apparent immediately. What I am going to try to do below is give you an insight into how a software engineer needs to look at, what would seem on the outside, a very simple function. The mute buttons are a very good case in point. Because there are really only 3 ways to show a mutes status (off/on/flashing),so it becomes very difficult to show exact information on how a channel is muted and from where. Some examples:
 
1)      When you ‘mute’ a channel from the channel mute you are muting all sends (pre or post) from it
2)      When you ‘mute’ a channel from a mute group you are muting all sends (pre or post) from it
3)      When you ‘mute a channel from a VCA group you are muting only post fader sends from it
4)      Mute groups can contain inputs, outputs or both
5)      VCA groups can contain inputs, outputs or both
There are more examples I can give you
 
As you can see there are too many states, that have different effects on the audio path, that we can display clearly and concisely on one button. For example: What happens when a channel is muted on its channel mute, but also muted within a VCA group? If you unmute the channel you would presume it would turn on (which it might for some pre fade sends), but it would still be muted by the VCA.
 
We will continue to look at as many functional options as we can. We would never discount doing something simply because it was hard. In the future multi-coloured mutes switches might work better than the traditional red. Things were so much easier on analogue consoles!


I figure I would save Jason the time since he already fielded this one for me previously.

Thanks Brian, it does indeed save a lot of time.

But I wanted to mention that we are still looking at this issue, we do understand why our users are asking for this kind of indication for mute status. Hopefully we will have a solution/option in a future software update.

Thanks,

Jason
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Jason Kelly
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Solid State Logic

Michael Archibald

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #172 on: April 05, 2013, 06:15:24 am »

I asked this a long time ago and this is the response I received.

When muting VCA's the channel contribution mute lights should indicate a mute state some how.  Blink on stay on solid.

This is a long and twisting road, so I will try and keep this as brief as I can. Unfortunately as with all things (especially when it comes to software) there are limitations, many of which may not become apparent immediately. What I am going to try to do below is give you an insight into how a software engineer needs to look at, what would seem on the outside, a very simple function. The mute buttons are a very good case in point. Because there are really only 3 ways to show a mutes status (off/on/flashing),so it becomes very difficult to show exact information on how a channel is muted and from where. Some examples:
 
1)      When you ‘mute’ a channel from the channel mute you are muting all sends (pre or post) from it
2)      When you ‘mute’ a channel from a mute group you are muting all sends (pre or post) from it
3)      When you ‘mute a channel from a VCA group you are muting only post fader sends from it
4)      Mute groups can contain inputs, outputs or both
5)      VCA groups can contain inputs, outputs or both
There are more examples I can give you
 
As you can see there are too many states, that have different effects on the audio path, that we can display clearly and concisely on one button. For example: What happens when a channel is muted on its channel mute, but also muted within a VCA group? If you unmute the channel you would presume it would turn on (which it might for some pre fade sends), but it would still be muted by the VCA.
 
We will continue to look at as many functional options as we can. We would never discount doing something simply because it was hard. In the future multi-coloured mutes switches might work better than the traditional red. Things were so much easier on analogue consoles!


I figure I would save Jason the time since he already fielded this one for me previously.

I'm sure there are many more examples where this is a problem, but in reply to your final example:

        "What happens when a channel is muted on its channel mute, but also muted within a VCA group? If you unmute the channel you would presume it would turn on (which it might for some pre fade sends), but it would still be muted by the VCA."

On any analogue console I have worked on, as soon as you unmute on the channel whilst the VCA is still muted, the channel mute goes from solid red to flashing red. Seems quite obvious to me. Solid red= local mute, Flashing=non-local mute, off=unmuted.

I see that it gets complicated to show a mute status when a channel may be muted in more than two ways (e.g. channel mute, VCA mute, Mute group) but in the example given, I can't see the problem. All that aside, the biggest issue that needs to be overcome is that when a channels mute light is off all together, the user should be able to assume that the channel is ON completely. Attention only needs to be drawn to the situation when pressing the mute button doesn't have the expected effect and then the cause of the non-local mutes can be investigated further.
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Jason Kelly

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #173 on: April 05, 2013, 06:52:11 am »

I'm sure there are many more examples where this is a problem, but in reply to your final example:

        "What happens when a channel is muted on its channel mute, but also muted within a VCA group? If you unmute the channel you would presume it would turn on (which it might for some pre fade sends), but it would still be muted by the VCA."

On any analogue console I have worked on, as soon as you unmute on the channel whilst the VCA is still muted, the channel mute goes from solid red to flashing red. Seems quite obvious to me. Solid red= local mute, Flashing=non-local mute, off=unmuted.

I see that it gets complicated to show a mute status when a channel may be muted in more than two ways (e.g. channel mute, VCA mute, Mute group) but in the example given, I can't see the problem. All that aside, the biggest issue that needs to be overcome is that when a channels mute light is off all together, the user should be able to assume that the channel is ON completely. Attention only needs to be drawn to the situation when pressing the mute button doesn't have the expected effect and then the cause of the non-local mutes can be investigated further.

Midas analogue consoles did not have flashing mutes, they worked in exactly the same way as our digital consoles do now. I'm not using this as any kind of excuse to not make the digital consoles work differently, I'm just stating a fact.

I'm really trying to avoid getting into an intellectual discussion here on this subject, as I've already said to Brian, it's a very deep rabbit hole. We are looking at ways we can improve this particular part of the UI. Making lights flash might not be the way we decide to do it.

Thanks,

Jason
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Jason Kelly
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Michael Archibald

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #174 on: April 05, 2013, 11:40:26 am »

Midas analogue consoles did not have flashing mutes, they worked in exactly the same way as our digital consoles do now. I'm not using this as any kind of excuse to not make the digital consoles work differently, I'm just stating a fact.

I'm really trying to avoid getting into an intellectual discussion here on this subject, as I've already said to Brian, it's a very deep rabbit hole. We are looking at ways we can improve this particular part of the UI. Making lights flash might not be the way we decide to do it.

Thanks,

Jason

No problem. I understand.
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Árni F. Sigurđsson

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #175 on: April 08, 2013, 12:03:42 am »

Making lights flash might not be the way we decide to do it.

Thanks,

Jason

You and flashing lights aren't best friends I hear :)

I was working on an analog console (soundcraft MH3) that had flashing mutes. Can't remember if it was a VCA mute or mute groups that caused flashing (or both) but I liked it.

the A&H iLive has a "DCA Mute" LED on each channels. You could maybe have an option to use the "Mute safe" light as a "VCA Mute indicator" although that still leaves the problem how to indicate if you are actually using the Mute safe.

I'm sure this will be solved with time and that the solution will be satisfying to most users.

Also really looking forward to see the 2.1 release notes and try it out myself.

Just to add how much I love the "Collapsed Flip" option for doing MON (especially when channel counts get higher)
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Al Burgess

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #176 on: April 10, 2013, 07:27:34 am »

Hi Jason

Ok well I won't trouble you further with the mute indication issue ( although I do have an opinion on it!) but I was just wondering about the other 2 questions in my post?

Thanks

Alan

Thanks Brian, it does indeed save a lot of time.

But I wanted to mention that we are still looking at this issue, we do understand why our users are asking for this kind of indication for mute status. Hopefully we will have a solution/option in a future software update.

Thanks,

Jason
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Alan Burgess

Jason Kelly

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #177 on: April 10, 2013, 10:19:34 am »

A couple of questions....
Is there any way to clear any/all the hardware safes without going through each channel individually?
It only seems possible to set up mute groups from the 'control groups' page, NOT on the surface ( despite what it says in the manual ) - or am I doing something wrong?
and a feature request;
'Muting' a VCA ( I know technically it's not actually a mute, but people are going to use it as if it was) doesn't trigger any kind of indication on the affected channels as to what's going on, which imo has the potential to be very confusing, especially if for example you're working in extended mode or have your VCAs hidden for some other reason. Would it be possible to implement for example a feature where the mute lights flash when they're muted from a vca? and would it be a good idea to have them work as true mutes rather than fader down?

Al, my apologies for not answering the other two questions.

Unfortunately the manual is a little misleading and refers to the way the PRO3/6/9 operates on mute group selection, this has been fixed on the next amendment of the manuals. On PRO1/2 it is only possible to assign from the GUI. But I personally find it much faster to assign my mute groups from the screen anyway. A useful trick to remember (for all VCA/POP/Mute groups) is that standard QWERTY keyboard short cuts work as they would on a PC. So you can select one channel, scroll down, press 'shift' on the keyboard and click on that channel to select a bunch. Command-click also works in the same way. It's a lot faster than pressing the select buttons on 48 input channels one by one.

As you probably know hardware safes are at the very top of the control hierarchy, they override all automation and show file control. They are the ultimate 'safe' on a channel as they are not show file dependent, but control surface dependent. So they are very useful for isolating output EQ's and faders on a festival for example (there are many more examples for their use), but still be able to import someone's show file. So having a button that allows you to clear them all would kind of defeat the objective of having them, which is that they are the 'ultimate' control. If it was easy to turn them off/on then their effectiveness would be much more limited.

Now I know that you could argue that not being able to turn them all off easily adds a layer of complexity when you just want to start afresh on a console, or when it gets back from a show to the warehouse and needs prep'ing for the next gig. This is why we added the hardware safe overview screen, so that you could keep that up on the GUI and just jump to channels and turn off/on the safes you need to quickly. It's a very balance to keep, but between the recall scopes and the hardware safes there's very little you can't do.

As usual I've waffled on for far too long,
But I hope I've answered your original question at least,
Thanks,

Jason
 
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Jason Kelly
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Brian Wynn

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #178 on: April 10, 2013, 12:08:52 pm »

Jason can you comment on the updates or fixes to the new software version 2.1?
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JamesButera

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Re: Midas Pro Series Console Questions
« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2013, 03:06:03 pm »

Jason,

   Not sure if this feature has been requested so here goes: On VENUE you can hold the Default Key and click on individual bands of EQ to flatten Gain & Q width. Midas offers all band flatten ability but individual would be great. Also the Multi-Select button on VENUE allows the user to quickly group channels and then move their faders while retaining relative level/balance between them. Also banks of 8 can be quickly selected by clicking below the bank of the screen. This would be a huge help in festival or blow and go type situations. Yes, I do realize VENUE has been a constant evolution of features and bug-fixes over the years; since I've been a huge user/supporter since day 1 I will admit all it's feature weren't available right off the bat.

 Also in regards to the ability to drag/drop or insert a newly added channel: For me personally the POP Groups have changed my mindset completely in regards to console layout and setup. The first few weeks it really frustrated me until I embraced the fact that it doesn't HAVE to match the input list in terms of numerical or start-finish order. If something gets added, put it after the last channel and then assign it to the associated POP & VCA group. Even for line check I'm using POP/VCA to go through all the inputs. I never leave a POP or VCA ever. After the channel has been added migrate the channel and all it's settings in Show Editor to the rest of the scenes and your golden. Hope this gives people another perspective.....
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