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[Joe Lepore]

This was obviously operator error, but I could use some help understanding the proper saving procedure and why there is no option or preference to accept/confirm the "NEXT" scene if hit accidentally.

I agree there should be an option for this.  I have also found when moving quickly and aiming for the "Save" - "Ok" buttons, the NOW button just calls out (being the same color and bigger).  I have hit it by mistake a few times and wiped out all my changes.  I do really think there should be a preference setting to allow confirmation on these buttons.

[Jason Kelly]

Hi All,

trying to wrap my head around the Saving and Storing features of the Pro series.

This past week, I was using a Pro1, everything configured and patched and soundcheck was smooth. I set my headphones down on the desk and hit the "NEXT" button.
I THOUGHT I saved correctly, but I must have not.
I was unable to "find" my show or scene. I had to reprogram and patch from memory with 2 min to spare. Cutting it a bit too close for me. (especially mixing monitors from FOH...geez!)

This was obviously operator error, but I could use some help understanding the proper saving procedure and why there is no option or preference to accept/confirm the "NEXT" scene if hit accidentally.

I understand I must create a show, save a scene.
The scene contains all of the console settings I set up including patching. Correct?
In addition, the patching is a savable item as is the input patching. Must I create these before I save the scene?
I don't understand the scope concept, either.

Thank you for the help!

Please excuse the long reply, stick with it.........

First some background:

It might help if I first try and explain the way the memory structure of the consoles works, hopefully then it will all click together. I'm also hoping this will help others once they read this too.

The consoles have a layered memory system similar to the way a laptop PC works. You have some RAM, an internal drive and a 'partician' where the console backs up. This would be similar to the hibernation partiction on a PC for instance.

You can use the consoles just like an analogue console, work on it, mix on it, set everything up. Turn it off and it will come back exactly as you left it. This uses both the RAM and the 'hibernation partition' together. This is because the whole systems 'state' is stored to the 'hibernation partician' every 5 seconds or so, while the RAM allows you to work on an entire file. This is slightly different on the offline software, as the hibernation partician doesn't exist. When you want to store the work you've done (on the console or the offline software) the vehicle to do this is a Show File.

When you create a new show file (Automation>New) you will see an empty file with a read only scene at 0. A new show file is basically the same as creating a new folder/file on your desktop. It is an empty folder waiting for data to be stored into it, in our case that data is scenes. So every Show File must have at least one scene in it. Once you have stored a scene you will see the SAVE button go red.

This tells you that the show file you are working on in the RAM is different from the show file backed up on the internal drive. Clicking SAVE synchronises the show file in the RAM with the copy on the internal drive.

Each scene is a complete picture (or snap shot) of the entire console. Every piece of data is stored in each and every scene. This includes network patching, console patching, bus configurations, effects racks, GEQ's, VCA/POP group assignments and everything else I haven't mentioned. A good way to visualise this is to think about the system as 3 layers. The top layer is the network/patching layer, the next layer down is the DSP/architecture layer, then you have the mixing layer (channel parameters). Each scene stores all the data in all 3 of these layers. This means that you can change the way the console is configured and deployed on a scene by scene basis, as all of the 3 layers is stored and recalled.

The key thing is to understand the difference between storing scenes (which is storing data) and saving show files (which is a whole folder of data). Storing scenes adds or overwrites data to the show file that you are working on in the RAM, saving backs up that show file to the internal drive of the console. You do not need to SAVE every time you store or overwrite a scene, only when you have made significant changes that you wish to back up to the internal drive.

If you only have one scene stored then the NEXT button shouldn't do anything, as there is no next scene to be recalled. But the NOW button would recall the scene, is it has not been stored/overwritten. While there is no confirmation for scene recall currently, there are a couple of work arounds. One if to unload or close the show file, this will disable to LAST/NOW/NEXT buttons and even if you lose power the console will come back with the last settings that were on the surface. If you want to store/overwrite a scene reload the show and store to it. Another alternative is to use the rehearsal skip function. Select the scene and edit, click in the skip box of the pop up window. Click on the Rehearsal button in the top right of the Automation screen. The LAST/NOW/NEXT buttons will no longer recall that scene. But you can click on it with the cursor and store/recall if you wish.

The safeing of parameters on the console is split into two distinct sections. The first is the hardware channel safes, these are found on the top of the detail strips. Channel Safes are control surface dependent and are not stored in a scene or as part of a show file. Therefore they are not transfered between control surfaces. They are designed to work as an override of the automation so that it doesn't matter how many files you load, or how many scenes you recall the safed parameters will not change. Recall scopes are different because they are scene dependent, therefore stored as part of the show file on a scene by scene basis. This means they are transfered between consoles as part of the file. If you are going to use recall scopes it's very important that you have at least one scene in your show (presuming you have multiple scenes) that has no recall scopes. This is so that you can recall your basic settings for that show between different consoles.

Patching (and many other parameters) are indeed savable as separate items. We call these presets and they are part of the preset library system. A preset library (part of the preset manager system) is a standalone file type that can be moved between all the consoles in the range. So almost any parameter, effect, patching configuration etc etc can be stored or loaded as a preset.

I hope this has helped in some way.
Once again apologies for the long reply.
Thanks,

Jason

[Brian Wynn]

Please excuse the long reply, stick with it.........

First some background:

It might help if I first try and explain the way the memory structure of the consoles works, hopefully then it will all click together. I'm also hoping this will help others once they read this too.

The consoles have a layered memory system similar to the way a laptop PC works. You have some RAM, an internal drive and a 'partician' where the console backs up. This would be similar to the hibernation partiction on a PC for instance.

You can use the consoles just like an analogue console, work on it, mix on it, set everything up. Turn it off and it will come back exactly as you left it. This uses both the RAM and the 'hibernation partition' together. This is because the whole systems 'state' is stored to the 'hibernation partician' every 5 seconds or so, while the RAM allows you to work on an entire file. This is slightly different on the offline software, as the hibernation partician doesn't exist. When you want to store the work you've done (on the console or the offline software) the vehicle to do this is a Show File.

When you create a new show file (Automation>New) you will see an empty file with a read only scene at 0. A new show file is basically the same as creating a new folder/file on your desktop. It is an empty folder waiting for data to be stored into it, in our case that data is scenes. So every Show File must have at least one scene in it. Once you have stored a scene you will see the SAVE button go red.

This tells you that the show file you are working on in the RAM is different from the show file backed up on the internal drive. Clicking SAVE synchronises the show file in the RAM with the copy on the internal drive.

Each scene is a complete picture (or snap shot) of the entire console. Every piece of data is stored in each and every scene. This includes network patching, console patching, bus configurations, effects racks, GEQ's, VCA/POP group assignments and everything else I haven't mentioned. A good way to visualise this is to think about the system as 3 layers. The top layer is the network/patching layer, the next layer down is the DSP/architecture layer, then you have the mixing layer (channel parameters). Each scene stores all the data in all 3 of these layers. This means that you can change the way the console is configured and deployed on a scene by scene basis, as all of the 3 layers is stored and recalled.

The key thing is to understand the difference between storing scenes (which is storing data) and saving show files (which is a whole folder of data). Storing scenes adds or overwrites data to the show file that you are working on in the RAM, saving backs up that show file to the internal drive of the console. You do not need to SAVE every time you store or overwrite a scene, only when you have made significant changes that you wish to back up to the internal drive.

If you only have one scene stored then the NEXT button shouldn't do anything, as there is no next scene to be recalled. But the NOW button would recall the scene, is it has not been stored/overwritten. While there is no confirmation for scene recall currently, there are a couple of work arounds. One if to unload or close the show file, this will disable to LAST/NOW/NEXT buttons and even if you lose power the console will come back with the last settings that were on the surface. If you want to store/overwrite a scene reload the show and store to it. Another alternative is to use the rehearsal skip function. Select the scene and edit, click in the skip box of the pop up window. Click on the Rehearsal button in the top right of the Automation screen. The LAST/NOW/NEXT buttons will no longer recall that scene. But you can click on it with the cursor and store/recall if you wish.

The safeing of parameters on the console is split into two distinct sections. The first is the hardware channel safes, these are found on the top of the detail strips. Channel Safes are control surface dependent and are not stored in a scene or as part of a show file. Therefore they are not transfered between control surfaces. They are designed to work as an override of the automation so that it doesn't matter how many files you load, or how many scenes you recall the safed parameters will not change. Recall scopes are different because they are scene dependent, therefore stored as part of the show file on a scene by scene basis. This means they are transfered between consoles as part of the file. If you are going to use recall scopes it's very important that you have at least one scene in your show (presuming you have multiple scenes) that has no recall scopes. This is so that you can recall your basic settings for that show between different consoles.

Patching (and many other parameters) are indeed savable as separate items. We call these presets and they are part of the preset library system. A preset library (part of the preset manager system) is a standalone file type that can be moved between all the consoles in the range. So almost any parameter, effect, patching configuration etc etc can be stored or loaded as a preset.

I hope this has helped in some way.
Once again apologies for the long reply.
Thanks,

Jason

No offense Jason Kelly we all appreciate the time you take to respond to the questions.  BUT  I asked this same question in the past and it seems that every time it gets brought back to life someone from Midas  responses as to how the system works.  We know how the system works that what we are complaining about.  ITS SUCKS!!!   We are asking the question in hopes that it can get fixed.  It doesn't work like any other console on the market.  I'm very sure that the next function can have a confirmation pop up.  If I go back to scene 0 it has a confirmation.  So that's why I don't understand why that can't be implemented on every scene change???  If it can't then maybe Midas should look at redesigning the filing system.   

I hate to have to make a response like this.  It's just very frustrating that every time a suggestion is made I seen a response as to how the system functions.  They are real world suggestions made by the day to day user's.  Midas should take these suggestions and compile a list and work on the things that everyone wants.  Avid does this on Ideascale.com and it works great.  We suggest, they listen, changes happen.  That should be the roll of the manufacture's programmers. Oh and ditch scene 0 it's dangerous.

Idea #2 Make the sends on fader mode more noticeable. Flash the select LCD's or Flash something on the screen.

Idea #3 Redo the Talk back circuit so it doesn't wipe the assignments every time you turn the talk back off.  I know I know that's how Midas has always done it ever since the old Analog consoles.  Well it's 2013 now not 1981 anymore make it work like it should.  Separate the OSC from the talk back circuit.  That's what everyone wants.

Disclaimer:  I'm sorry if I offended Jason or anyone by my post.

BW

 

[Brian Wynn]

Another question

I went to line my subs up with PA hangs by delay the other day and wanted to set the OSC to the x over point.  Went in the OSC assigned it sent it to the mains and then went to dial my OSC to the required X over Freq. and low and behold no indication of the freq. i was sending out. The knob on the screen has only a minimum and maximum freq.  No pop up no way to dial it to a exact freq. from what I can tell.  I had to get out my RTA to line up the PA.  Did I miss something or did Midas?

[peter dakin]

Another question

I went to line my subs up with PA hangs by delay the other day and wanted to set the OSC to the x over point.  Went in the OSC assigned it sent it to the mains and then went to dial my OSC to the required X over Freq. and low and behold no indication of the freq. i was sending out. The knob on the screen has only a minimum and maximum freq.  No pop up no way to dial it to a exact freq. from what I can tell.  I had to get out my RTA to line up the PA.  Did I miss something or did Midas?

you need to turn the "pop-up" option (or 'Display Rotary Values') on, however in this currently version (2.05r), the pop figure will likely be wrong due to some wrong number crunching. Next update should have this rectified from what I hear.
Page 209 of manual, user preferences > display rotary values.
I have them off at the moment as the incorrect value is distracting, so you would still need an RTA or 'bat-like' ears to identify correct frequency.
So yes, you have missed something, but so have Midas. Watch for updates! 

[Jason Kelly]

No offense Jason Kelly we all appreciate the time you take to respond to the questions.  BUT  I asked this same question in the past and it seems that every time it gets brought back to life someone from Midas  responses as to how the system works.  We know how the system works that what we are complaining about.  ITS SUCKS!!!   We are asking the question in hopes that it can get fixed.  It doesn't work like any other console on the market.  I'm very sure that the next function can have a confirmation pop up.  If I go back to scene 0 it has a confirmation.  So that's why I don't understand why that can't be implemented on every scene change???  If it can't then maybe Midas should look at redesigning the filing system.   

I hate to have to make a response like this.  It's just very frustrating that every time a suggestion is made I seen a response as to how the system functions.  They are real world suggestions made by the day to day user's.  Midas should take these suggestions and compile a list and work on the things that everyone wants.  Avid does this on Ideascale.com and it works great.  We suggest, they listen, changes happen.  That should be the roll of the manufacture's programmers. Oh and ditch scene 0 it's dangerous.

Idea #2 Make the sends on fader mode more noticeable. Flash the select LCD's or Flash something on the screen.

Idea #3 Redo the Talk back circuit so it doesn't wipe the assignments every time you turn the talk back off.  I know I know that's how Midas has always done it ever since the old Analog consoles.  Well it's 2013 now not 1981 anymore make it work like it should.  Separate the OSC from the talk back circuit.  That's what everyone wants.

Disclaimer:  I'm sorry if I offended Jason or anyone by my post.

BW

Dear Brian,

No offense taken.

If I have given the impression that 'this is the way we do it, so deal with it' then I'm sorry for this, it was not my intention. Everything that is fed back to us from our users, customers and distribution partners is collated and considered. We keep a running 'league table' of feature requests that is updated regularly and this helps us make product development decisions.

My job here (and specifically with this post) is not to explain how things might work in the future or what we are looking at changing. But to explain how it works 'today', because that is what the user will be faced with. I have also tried to explain the underlying working processes, so that they can better understand the system as a whole. I am not trying to justify 'how' we do things, I'm trying to explain 'how' it works and where possible 'why' it works that way.

It would be foolish to discuss feature development here in a public forum, so I will not be going down that road. It is a rabbit hole we can't go down in this thread. But please be assured that everyone's comments on this forum (and as many of the other forums that we can contribute to) are read and included. It may seem that manufacturers some times choose to 'ignore the customer'. This is definitely not the case with Midas, we try very hard to include our users in development. We may not be able to respond as quickly as some people might like, but that is not the same as ignoring user requests.

I hope this goes some way to putting your mind at rest,
Thanks

Jason

[Brian Wynn]

you need to turn the "pop-up" option (or 'Display Rotary Values') on, however in this currently version (2.05r), the pop figure will likely be wrong due to some wrong number crunching. Next update should have this rectified from what I hear.
Page 209 of manual, user preferences > display rotary values.
I have them off at the moment as the incorrect value is distracting, so you would still need an RTA or 'bat-like' ears to identify correct frequency.
So yes, you have missed something, but so have Midas. Watch for updates! 

Value pop up is on.  It doesn't display in the OSC page.

[peter dakin]

Value pop up is on.  It doesn't display in the OSC page.

hmm interesting..

[Jason Kelly]

Another question

I went to line my subs up with PA hangs by delay the other day and wanted to set the OSC to the x over point.  Went in the OSC assigned it sent it to the mains and then went to dial my OSC to the required X over Freq. and low and behold no indication of the freq. i was sending out. The knob on the screen has only a minimum and maximum freq.  No pop up no way to dial it to a exact freq. from what I can tell.  I had to get out my RTA to line up the PA.  Did I miss something or did Midas?

Currently the numeric values are activated via the touch sensitivity of the control surface. As the OSC controls (even on the consoles that have a physical one) aren't touch sensitive you don't get the value pop up.

I can see why, in this application, an absolute OSC value is essential. We cannot have a pop up value for the OSC controls, but we can look at adding a field underneath the OSC frequency parameter (similar to the input/output delays) where you could type in a frequency from the QWERTY keyboard and get the same end result. In many ways, because of the sensitivity and resolution of the rotary control itself, typing in a value would probably be quicker and more accurate.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[Doug Fowler]

If understand Brian's correctly, I think he was trying to deal with a slightly different issue. By hitting any of the automation buttons on the console surface (accidentally or not) it's possible to move away from the current scene and lose all changes made. He is asking for a system where this does not happen such as a confirmation. I see why Midas has not implemented this as it would severely limit fast scenes changes. However, would it not be possible to put something in the preferences to disable scene changes from these buttons? Hitting them accidentally during a show could be disastrous, far more so than hitting the 'solo in place' button and this always has a cover on it!

Read the rules, fix your display name.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[ProSoundWeb Community]