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[Bradley Marshall]

Hello!

This is my first time posting to this site.  I have done some reading recently about selection of stage monitors, and got some great advice.

I am in charge of sound at my church.  We currently use two Shure wireless microphone receivers that receive from two body pack transmitters, that each have Countryman "ear" mics.  The specific model is not too important - the problem is that the receivers clip easily when the level is all the way up, and have a high noise floor (a hiss) when the unit is reduced from full output level.  On top of that, the sound quality is terrible.

I want to buy a couple of new wireless microphone systems.  At my previous church, we were able to use either  a body pack or a wireless handheld with each one of our recievers - I would love to have that flexibility once again.  We already have the Countryman mics, so I would just need to buy 2 new receivers, 2 body pack transmitters, and 2 handheld microphones.

My previous church had TOA brand microphones, and I loved their sound quality and low S/N ratio.  I plan on getting TOA this time as well.  If you would like to weigh-in your suggestions on brands/models to pick up, feel free (although that's not the direct purpose of this post).  I would love to get all of the above items for $300-500 per set.

My questions:
1. It looks like, when you buy a "wireless microphone system" from a store, you get the receiver, plus the microphone (either a handheld, or a body pack including headset).  Is it possible to purchase the items that I need all separately, then assemble them?  I would expect to need to buy the same brand, possibly the same product line for all parts.
2.  If number one is possible, how do I tune each body pack, microphone, and receiver to the same frequency?
3.  If number one is not possible/a good idea, is there a website/company that would sell me the parts that I need (basically, a whole set up minus the headset microphone part), with body pack and microphone already tuned to the receiver?

Thanks a lot!  Let me know if there's any more information you would like.

-Brad

[Arnold B. Krueger]

I am in charge of sound at my church.  We currently use two Shure wireless microphone receivers that receive from two body pack transmitters, that each have Countryman "ear" mics.  The specific model is not too important - the problem is that the receivers clip easily when the level is all the way up, and have a high noise floor (a hiss) when the unit is reduced from full output level.  On top of that, the sound quality is terrible.

Which Shure Wireless? We have a number of Shure SLX systems and have no such problems. More specifically, they run essentially noise free, and were easy to adjust so that their users wearing Countryman E6 microphones don't clip and sound great.

If you have people who are exceptionally loud speakers, then it might be the microphones themselves that are clipping. There are less-sensitive models of E6s if you have that need. I've worked with some fairly loud vocalists and the standard E6 worked well with a nominal gain reduction at the transmitter.

I want to buy a couple of new wireless microphone systems.  At my previous church, we were able to use either  a body pack or a wireless handheld with each one of our receivers - I would love to have that flexibility once again.

Not a problem with any system that allows you to buy the transmitters separately. In most cases there are separate body pack transmitters as well as transmitters that are incorporated into microphones.

Some high end systems allow you to use several different mic capsules with their hand-held transmitters. In addition the Audio Technica 3000 series and some higher end systems have a separate transmitter that you attach to the XLR connector of vocal mics. Your choice of microphones is a little restricted with the AT 3000 transmitter in that it only provides 12 volts of phantom power, so you have to be careful which condenser mics you use with it. It will work with just about any dynamic mic.

  We already have the Countryman mics, so I would just need to buy 2 new receivers, 2 body pack transmitters, and 2 handheld microphones.

My questions:
1. It looks like, when you buy a "wireless microphone system" from a store, you get the receiver, plus the microphone (either a handheld, or a body pack including headset).  Is it possible to purchase the items that I need all separately, then assemble them?

It depends, but often yes. You may need to deal with a store with extensive stocks, such as B&H, etc. Your local Guitar Center probably doesn't have everything on hand. If you are working with a sales guy, he needs to know his wireless mics so that he can advise you about your options.

  I would expect to need to buy the same brand, possibly the same product line for all parts.

Again generally true, but not an iron rule.

2.  If number one is possible, how do I tune each body pack, microphone, and receiver to the same frequency?

Since tuning procedures vary by brand and model, there is no exact same answer to that question. However all of the wireless mics I have worked with that supported multiple channels had a manual method for tuning a bunch of transmitters to the same frequency. Some brands and models work with bands and channels, and others actually let you tune exact frequencies.

I've worked with some pretty good mics, and I've worked with some fairly crappy ones but I've never had the problems you have mentioned so your post sort of mystifies me. OTOH, I've never walked in exactly your shoes and situation. I hope you can clarify your make and model information and perhaps more information about your situation.

[Bradley Marshall]

Thanks for the great responses!  That's exactly what I needed to know.

Which Shure Wireless? We have a number of Shure SLX systems and have no such problems. More specifically, they run essentially noise free, and were easy to adjust so that their users wearing Countryman E6 microphones don't clip and sound great.

I don't know the model off-hand, but it looks like the UT series (http://www.zzounds.com/item--SHUUT1420). That web page shows our receiver and body pack, but as I mentioned, we have the Countryman mics.  Our unit is teal on the front instead of chrome, and I would estimate it was purchased 8-10 years ago.

If you have people who are exceptionally loud speakers, then it might be the microphones themselves that are clipping. There are less-sensitive models of E6s if you have that need. I've worked with some fairly loud vocalists and the standard E6 worked well with a nominal gain reduction at the transmitter.

It is definitely clipping on the receiver.  There's a red "Peak" light that comes on while it's clipping.  The speakers who set it off are speaking loudly (or laughing, etc.) when it happens, which isn't most of the time.  However, I wouldn't say the volume from the person is extremely loud - just good projection.  When I reduce the gain on the unit, the clipping goes away, but when I compensate with gain from the sound board, it gets very hissy quickly (for example, at 75% gain on the receiver, it's a fair amount of noticeable hiss).  Anticipating a question, I don't think it's noisy preamps on the sound console, since none of the other instruments do it.

[dick rees]

Hello!



I am in charge of sound at my church.  We currently use two Shure wireless microphone receivers that receive from two body pack transmitters, that each have Countryman "ear" mics.  The specific model is not too important

Yes, all specific information is important.

 - the problem is that the receivers clip easily when the level is all the way up, and have a high noise floor (a hiss) when the unit is reduced from full output level.  On top of that, the sound quality is terrible.

There are several possible points in the overall signal chain where such problems may occur.  You have decided  that it comes from a certain particular source but offer no diagnostic proof to back up your assertion.  It could simply be that the transmitter sensitivity is set too high, or that the mic element is in a poor position.

I want to buy a couple of new wireless microphone systems.

Why?  You have not proved for certain that it is the equipment at fault rather than something or things out of adjustment within the system.  Your description of a high noise floor *(hissing)
 leads one to believe that the gain structure is out of whack.

[/quote]
 At my previous church, we were able to use either  a body pack or a wireless handheld with each one of our recievers - I would love to have that flexibility once again.  We already have the Countryman mics, so I would just need to buy 2 new receivers, 2 body pack transmitters, and 2 handheld microphones.

My previous church had TOA brand microphones, and I loved their sound quality and low S/N ratio.  I plan on getting TOA this time as well.  If you would like to weigh-in your suggestions on brands/models to pick up, feel free (although that's not the direct purpose of this post).  I would love to get all of the above items for $300-500 per set.

My questions:
1. It looks like, when you buy a "wireless microphone system" from a store, you get the receiver, plus the microphone (either a handheld, or a body pack including headset).  Is it possible to purchase the items that I need all separately, then assemble them?  I would expect to need to buy the same brand, possibly the same product line for all parts.
2.  If number one is possible, how do I tune each body pack, microphone, and receiver to the same frequency?
3.  If number one is not possible/a good idea, is there a website/company that would sell me the parts that I need (basically, a whole set up minus the headset microphone part), with body pack and microphone already tuned to the receiver?

Thanks a lot!  Let me know if there's any more information you would like.

-Brad
[/quote]

Don't throw money at the problem until you know for sure what the problem is.

[Bradley Marshall]

Yes, all specific information is important.

Well, I meant that, number 1, I don't know the model number off-hand (and yes, I realize that I didn't say that), and number 2, that wasn't the problem I was asking for help about.

There are several possible points in the overall signal chain where such problems may occur.  You have decided  that it comes from a certain particular source but offer no diagnostic proof to back up your assertion.  It could simply be that the transmitter sensitivity is set too high, or that the mic element is in a poor position.

Why?  You have not proved for certain that it is the equipment at fault rather than something or things out of adjustment within the system.  Your description of a high noise floor *(hissing) leads one to believe that the gain structure is out of whack.

Again, this is not the issue that I needed help with.  See my above response for answers to your issues.  Now, while I had diagnosed the issue using the Peak light on the receiver itself, your point about the bodypack gain being too high is a good possibility.  I hadn't considered this before, because the gain control on the pack itself is not obvious (and may not even be labeled).  This will probably help things to sound better in the short term, but I would still like to upgrade in the longer term (next year).

Don't throw money at the problem until you know for sure what the problem is.

Please don't disrespect me.  Your post could have easily had more questions, and no accusations.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Well, I meant that, number 1, I don't know the model number off-hand (and yes, I realize that I didn't say that), and number 2, that wasn't the problem I was asking for help about.

Again, this is not the issue that I needed help with.  See my above response for answers to your issues.  Now, while I had diagnosed the issue using the Peak light on the receiver itself, your point about the bodypack gain being too high is a good possibility.  I hadn't considered this before, because the gain control on the pack itself is not obvious (and may not even be labeled).  This will probably help things to sound better in the short term, but I would still like to upgrade in the longer term (next year).

Please don't disrespect me.  Your post could have easily had more questions, and no accusations.

I don't think Dick was disrespecting you - he's giving you good advice.  It's a little early to blame the gear as bad until you have a full understanding.  Turning down the transmitter's audio gain will almost certainly solve your main problem.

Generally transmitters and receivers are sold together.  It may be possible to buy them separately in some cases, but it's not going to be cheaper than as a set.  All but the very bottom of the range are multi-channel digital tuning systems, and as long as you order a transmitter and receiver of the same model type in the same frequency band, they can be tuned to the same channel using the buttons on the devices.  In some cases it is possible to use a transmitter of a different model type than a receiver as long as they operate in the same band, but this usually isn't a good idea, as there are different algorithms that may not line up between different systems that will affect audio quality.

The mic element is often ordered separately.  Usually the most economical way to do this is to order the system as a guitar system - it then only comes with a guitar cord, which may be slightly cheaper than if it comes with a mic element. 

When you order a new headset mic, be sure to order it with the correct connector for whatever wireless system you will be using it with - they're not always the same.

[dick rees]

Well, I meant that, number 1, I don't know the model number off-hand (and yes, I realize that I didn't say that), and number 2, that wasn't the problem I was asking for help about.

You're assuming you know what the problem is.  I don't think you do......no disrespect intended.
Running out and buying something different will not solve your problem.  Take this opportunity to learn about proper gain structure and how to maintain it from the mic element all the way through the signal chain to the listener.  When you understand that you will be able to more easily and accurately make an assessment of any problems you may encounter.  Right now you're sort of tilting at windmills.

Respectfully,

Someone who's been running sound systems since the Edsel was introduced.

[Bradley Marshall]

Thanks for the info, Tom!

[Bradley Marshall]

You're assuming you know what the problem is.  I don't think you do......no disrespect intended.
Running out and buying something different will not solve your problem.  Take this opportunity to learn about proper gain structure and how to maintain it from the mic element all the way through the signal chain to the listener.  When you understand that you will be able to more easily and accurately make an assessment of any problems you may encounter.  Right now you're sort of tilting at windmills.

Fair enough.  I do have enough of an understanding of gain structure to fully grasp the problem at the transmitter, and why it's happening.  My relative inexperience with wireless bodypacks caused me to miss the fact that it had its own gain control.  Had I known that, I would have started there.

Thanks for your help.

[Jeff Carter]

One quirk of the Shure UT-series in particular... the 'peak' light is supposed to occasionally light up if the gain structure is properly set. If it's on constantly, or there's audible distortion, then the transmitter gain is too high... but that doesn't seem to be the situation here.

Bradley, I'd suggest you read the manual for the system you have and make sure you understand exactly how all the indicators and adjustments work (and if you need any more help, tell us exactly what model you have), since some indicators and controls that look very similar can function very differently from one model to the next.