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[Brad Tartaglia]

Hey Guys,


Looking to get some opinions here. My company uses both front load and folded horn subs.   Front load being the EV QRX series, and our folded horns are the Cerwin Vega TS-42.  Which do you feel is better?  I was always told that folded horn subs were far more efficient than standard front load.

[Lance Richens]

Hey Guys,


Looking to get some opinions here. My company uses both front load and folded horn subs.   Front load being the EV QRX series, and our folded horns are the Cerwin Vega TS-42.  Which do you feel is better?  I was always told that folded horn subs were far more efficient than standard front load.

(pulling up chair)......

[Tim McCulloch]

Hey Guys,


Looking to get some opinions here. My company uses both front load and folded horn subs.   Front load being the EV QRX series, and our folded horns are the Cerwin Vega TS-42.  Which do you feel is better?  I was always told that folded horn subs were far more efficient than standard front load.

If efficiency is your only criteria there are real horns that are far better. 

That said, they are popular with certain ethnic genres where the limited range and distortion are considered artistic attributes, so to each his/her own.

Why do you ask?  If your customers are happy, if you guys aren't reconing the speakers on a regular basis, then my opinion doesn't matter....  but my personal observation of the CV "folded horns" is somewhere between "one-note wonder" and "unmitigated piece of shit."  The only reason they don't automatically qualify in the PoS category is that there are others that are worse than the CV.

[Brad Tartaglia]

If efficiency is your only criteria there are real horns that are far better. 

That said, they are popular with certain ethnic genres where the limited range and distortion are considered artistic attributes, so to each his/her own.

Why do you ask?  If your customers are happy, if you guys aren't reconing the speakers on a regular basis, then my opinion doesn't matter....  but my personal observation of the CV "folded horns" is somewhere between "one-note wonder" and "unmitigated piece of shit."  The only reason they don't automatically qualify in the PoS category is that there are others that are worse than the CV.

Main reason I ask is because I like to hear what others think of certain products... Sometimes I get a better idea of what Im working with.  I am a big Cerwin Vega fan only because they have never failed me once and I have beat the balls off of them. I have also used "high end" companies such as Meyer Sound... and have never had so many problems (certain models). But I agree.. To his/her own.  Thank you for your reply!

[chuck clark]

Of course horn loaded is more efficient than front load. It's just that the lowest frequency anyone has been able to design into a practical sized box is about 60hz. Above that they get increasingly efficient and below that they roll off pretty quickly, so back in the day of 500 watts being a big amp and kick drum hitting you in the chest, horn loads ruled. Now with synthesized notes  sustaining 30 hz tones @ 140 db + its hard to find a horn load design that doesn't rattle.  Gene Cerwin pioneered correct horn loaded bass back in the days of the "Earthquake" movie with "Sensurround" and I have used L 36's to great effect.  Bassmaxx and Turbosound still make some AMAZING horn load boxes.  Once you understand that they don't exhibit the even response of a reflex design you can tune them correctly.  What amazes me is how good bass reflex design's sound since technically speaking they are out of phase with themselves everywhere EXCEPT at the tuned frequency. They DO have a more even frequency response though which system tuners seem to prefer. SOooo, you have both these boxes in stock? Get 'em out and do an A/B test.  The realities of physics predict you will experience more "chest thump" with the horn loads @ lower wattage inputs while the reflex design will give you "deeper" low end.  Happy sailing!
Chuck

[Kevin McDonough]

Yeah, agree that the CV horn you list isn't the BEST example ever.

However, in general, a proper front loaded horn (FLH) will have several advantages over a reflex speaker. They have MUCH higher sensitivity, occasionally as much as 8 or 9db driver for driver compared to a reflex speaker. They will have less distortion and a much "cleaner" sound, smaller group delay and a "quicker" punchier sound, have some inbuilt directivity and have a perception of longer "throw" than a reflex speaker. They also have a perception of moving more air than a reflex speaker, or at least in a more directed/controlled way, and "flapping your trousers" or "kicking you in the chest" more.

However their big downfall is the size needed, not unmanageable just much bigger to achieve a usable "sub" bandwidth. However they do have the bonus that they gain much more from coupling than a reflex speaker does, and soon as you start to use them in groups of 4 or more you increase the mouth area enough to rescue back a lot of the low that is missing in a single cab and can easily hit 40Hz or lower.

Reflexes will be able to match horns for SPL against footprint overall as you'll be able to fit more reflex boxes/drivers into the same space and make up for the sensitivity gains of the horn, but you obviously then have to spend much more on both boxes an the extra amps needed to power them.

To me, a small show with one or two subs a side is a no brainer a reflex sub will give you the bandwidth you need in a smaller, manageable box. Soon as your doing big shows where you can stack 4 or more horn subs, especially outdoors, then there are distinct advantages to looking at horns as a solution and a group of four or six well designed horn subs will (IMHO obviously) wipe the floor with four or six double 18", sound far better, cleaner and louder for less amp power.


However these days you also have a plethora of other horn choices which are "in-betweenies". Tapped horns, bandpass horns and ported horns of various types, shapes and sizes all allow you straddle both and gain some of the sensitivity of a horn without loosing too much of the bandwidth or make the box just as big as a FLH.

That said, they are popular with certain ethnic genres where the limited range and distortion are considered artistic attributes, so to each his/her own.

I think possibly your thinking of Scoops here?  A normal FLH will have much less distortion than a reflex speaker, however a Scoop is particular type of hybrid horn, and these have a driver where the front face is reflex loaded and the rear face feeds into a horn path. They have a very distinct sound due to the phase relationships of the two sound sources as they combine, and are used almost exclusively in Roots/reggae/dub style music.

It's just that the lowest frequency anyone has been able to design into a practical sized box is about 60hz......Now with synthesized notes  sustaining 30 hz tones @ 140 db + its hard to find a horn load design that doesn't rattle.

Have a look at the Lab sub, EM MSE-118, Terrahorn, Void Psyco sub, and many others that in a group of 4 will go well down into the 30's and sound awesome, much cleaner, deeper and fuller than most (but not all!  )reflex loaded 18's.    And as he says, martin WSX, bassmax, turbosound will all still hit 40hz in a group of 4 and outdoors be a completely different animal from a stack of reflex speakers.


But yeah chuck says it best, the end test in these is always to first use your ears. Then consider what your trying to achieve. As always in our business every speaker has its advantages and its drawbacks and its a case of choosing the right set of compromises for the job at hand. 


k

[Chris Chambers]

..now to wait for the BFM fan boys..

[Ivan Beaver]

There is a lot more to it than just front loaded vs horn loaded.

Some other factors that will affect the "final outcome" include:

1: Quality of the design

2: Quality of the build (wood used (thickness and plys)-bracing etc)

3: Drivers used-and how well the particular cabinet is designed for the drivers

Screw up any one of those-and the whole thing starts to "fall apart"- performance wise.

It is kinda like saying what is better Gas or desiel?  It depends-and there are a lot more factors involed for a particular usage than simple fuel sources or general cabinet layout.

[Brad Weber]

There is a lot more to it than just front loaded vs horn loaded.

Some other factors that will affect the "final outcome" include:

1: Quality of the design

2: Quality of the build (wood used (thickness and plys)-bracing etc)

3: Drivers used-and how well the particular cabinet is designed for the drivers

Not to mention the implementation, the tuning, the operation and, of course, the application.  Simply asking "which is better, A or B" is almost always going to garner purely subjective opinions as everyone may have a different perspective on what is "better" and they may differ significantly from your interpretation.

[George Dougherty]

+1 on CV being unrepresentative of a real horn loaded sub.  IIRC, the horn path needs to be 1/4 wavelength at a minimum to act as a horn in that range.  For the CV horn path, that leaves them up above 100Hz as a useful frequency.

Real horn loaded subs tend to be rather large boxes for their frequency response, but so do the really deep direct radiators.  Small, low, loud, pick two.  Modern drivers do some pretty impressive things in a properly designed reflex cab in terms of minimizing distortion. 

Personally, I own and run some large BFM Titan 48's but I can live with the pack space because I frequently need the efficiency for the work I do.  I've had them up against direct radiators and the SQ against MI direct radiators is an easy win.  They walk all over the CV subs, but that's not saying much, as others have already noted.  Also, as noted, it takes some EQ to get them to sound right.  Their rising efficiency means you have to pull the top end down to clean up the sound and remove the overbearing low-midrange inherent in the design.

[ProSoundWeb Community]