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[Bob L. Wilson]

Reformed and always reforming according to the word of God!

I am understanding your posts to mean all the gains and faders are where you have generally had them but now for reasons you do not understand the main output meters on the board are running much higher than they did before. Am I correct?

We do really need to know what kind of speaker system is being used.

[David Vercoe]

Reformed and always reforming according to the word of God!

I am understanding your posts to mean all the gains and faders are where you have generally had them but now for reasons you do not understand the main output meters on the board are running much higher than they did before. Am I correct?

We do really need to know what kind of speaker system is being used.

Yes you are correct all I know right now off the top of my head is that we have one main speaker that is center hung in the sanctuary from the ceiling center being width wise. That speaker is a peavey not sure of the model and I can't really find out as our ceiling is pretty high. We also have 3 peavey floor monitors. As far as speakers go this is all the info I can give now untilled I am at the church tomorrow nigh when I can get model numbers

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Yes you are correct all I know right now off the top of my head is that we have one main speaker that is center hung in the sanctuary from the ceiling center being width wise. That speaker is a peavey not sure of the model and I can't really find out as our ceiling is pretty high. We also have 3 peavey floor monitors. As far as speakers go this is all the info I can give now untilled I am at the church tomorrow nigh when I can get model numbers

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk

David....

Thanks for the chat.  After learning your situation regarding equipment (or the lack thereof) I'll just report to the other helpers here that your situation is this:

1.  The "problem" showed up only after a change in the worship regimen from traditional voice and choir worship to adding a praise team.

2.  The original system was designed to be adequate for nominal voice and music reproduction and is now being pressed into a more  demanding role for which it is inadequate.

It is quite clear that (as expected) the board is being run "into the red" in an attempt to get a result for which the system is incapable.  I explained how to properly set input gains and attempted a quick over-view of gain structure, all of which was new to the OP.

I wish him luck. 

[Jordan Wolf]

...we have one main speaker that is center hung in the sanctuary from the ceiling center being width wise...

One little loudspeaker, huh?  And you're putting all this...

3-4 singers at a time
accustic guitar to DI box to snake
Keyboard to DI box to Snake
drumset not micd at all
bass guitar (Wednesday nights)
Grand Piano with mic inside

...through it?


You're asking a lot of that one loudspeaker - and when it can't give you the volume you need, the operator pushes the levels more and more until something, somewhere, clips or distorts.  There may be one bottleneck in your current system or many; all it takes is one piece of gear to be pushed too far...


I have a few ideas that may help alleviate some of the strain on the system:

1. Vocals only through the main loudspeaker.  (It sounds like that may be how this system was designed to be operated anyway).

2. You need to try and keep the stage levels as under control as possible.  A drum shield (or better yet, a drummer that can control his/her playing) can help.

3. The volume of stage monitors should be kept as low as necessary.


None of these are actual fixes for your sound system, but they may be usable workarounds until you can get someone in there to assess what should be done.

If/When you do find an installer, post on here what they are suggesting and I'm sure you'll get some good opinions about it.

And, FYI, I'm over in Cherry Hill, NJ.  If you'd still like an unbiased opinion, maybe I can make my way over to have a listen at a rehearsal sometime.  Shoot me a Private Message or e-mail and we can figure out a time/date.

Best of luck!

[Sidney.Pilien]

How does the audio sound? Does it sound normal as always to you or is it distorted as it peaks? Have you checked the monitors as well if it is distorted or not? And what meters are distorting? Channels, stereo outs?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

David...

Here's a link that will help you understand how your system actually works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrWW6HsJ0w

PFL use for setting your input gain is where you start.  It's the same for your A & H board.
If you set your mixer up according to these instructions and you're still going into the red, then it is certain that your system is inadequate for your attempted usage.

[Bob L. Wilson]

It sounds like you do need a complete revisit of your sound system but it must begin with an intentional process that defines very clearly and in specificity what types of vocal and music ministries it needs to serve and what performance parameters it needs to meet. This is the critical step in the process, without which there is no framework to logically evaluate the recommendation(s) provided by integrators/consultants. If you need help beginning the process of setting sound system goals I would suggest tracking down the lead sound technicians for a few of the big congregations in your Prebytery. They will also be good sources of information about which contractors/consultants/integrators to consider and which to avoid in your area. I could also send you a sample document that I helped a new PCUSA church create a couple years ago as well but I can be of no help in determining competent service providers in your area.

That is the long road to a permanent solution the short road to improve things through Easter is this. Graft a portable music reinforcement system on to the permanent spoken word system you already have. As this will be a temporary solution definitely improved but admittedly sub-optimum performance is the goal. The good news is you can implement on a before Easter or sooner time line. You will need an experienced technician to help you source the gear, set this up the first time and to help you sort out any operational issues that arise after intial setup!!!! Do not proceed until you have this person!!! The portable system to be added on will consist of:

1) A speaker system something like this http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2825910981.html or http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2840740971.html. 
2) A pair of amplifiers like this http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2817038542.html or similar
3) A system processor
Good performing low cost readily resellable units include DBX Driverack PA or PA+, EV DX34, or my first choice for this application a Shure DFR22. All sell on the web in the $200-$300 range.
4) One more Shure DFR11EQ, if you use a DFR22 as your system processor, or two more if you use a driverack or something else. This will give you dynamics processing, equalization and feedback elimination on the entire system. DFR11EQ units sell for $50-$100 on the web.
4) A rack, interconnecting cables, and electrical power connections. I am assuming you have at least one line on your snake that can be used for an additonal send, and sufficient electrical power available for the additional amplifiers but know these could both be big problems for a short term fix if not available.

Configuration would be something like: connect one channel of the present Peavey amp and its flown speaker to the left send on your board pan the spoken word mics in your system fully left. Connect the new speaker processor/amps/speakers to the right send pan your worship teams mics and inputs fully right. Connect the other channel of the Peavey amp and the monitor speakers to Aux1 on your board selecting a prefader signal. Insert a DFR11EQ on the monitor channel (aux1), one on the left send to the flown speaker, and one on the right send if you can't locate a DFR22 to use as the system processor. From here it is up to the person you bring in for first time setup to decide where and in what configuration to place the new music reinforcement speakers, properly set up the system processor, outboard DFR units, gains on the  amplifiers, and train you on operation. The system will provide worship team music reinforcement through the new speaker system the levels will revert to normal through your existing spoken word system. If whoever sets this up is worth their salt the outcome should be respectable and your long term costs very low. Anything you buy now that doesn't fit in to the next permanent sound system design or doesn't serve an additional ministry opportunity(perhaps the grafted on gear becomes part of a truly portable system used for some outreach ministry?) can just be resold, probably for about what is paid for it.

[Tom Young]

It sounds like you do need a complete revisit of your sound system but it must begin with an intentional process that defines very clearly and in specificity what types of vocal and music ministries it needs to serve and what performance parameters it needs to meet. This is the critical step in the process, without which there is no framework to logically evaluate the recommendation(s) provided by integrators/consultants. If you need help beginning the process of setting sound system goals I would suggest tracking down the lead sound technicians for a few of the big congregations in your Prebytery. They will also be good sources of information about which contractors/consultants/integrators to consider and which to avoid in your area. I could also send you a sample document that I helped a new PCUSA church create a couple years ago as well but I can be of no help in determining competent service providers in your area.

That is the long road to a permanent solution the short road to improve things through Easter is this. Graft a portable music reinforcement system on to the permanent spoken word system you already have. As this will be a temporary solution definitely improved but admittedly sub-optimum performance is the goal. The good news is you can implement on a before Easter or sooner time line. You will need an experienced technician to help you source the gear, set this up the first time and to help you sort out any operational issues that arise after intial setup!!!! Do not proceed until you have this person!!! The portable system to be added on will consist of:

1) A speaker system something like this http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2825910981.html or http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2840740971.html. 
2) A pair of amplifiers like this http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/2817038542.html or similar
3) A system processor
Good performing low cost readily resellable units include DBX Driverack PA or PA+, EV DX34, or my first choice for this application a Shure DFR22. All sell on the web in the $200-$300 range.
4) One more Shure DFR11EQ, if you use a DFR22 as your system processor, or two more if you use a driverack or something else. This will give you dynamics processing, equalization and feedback elimination on the entire system. DFR11EQ units sell for $50-$100 on the web.
4) A rack, interconnecting cables, and electrical power connections. I am assuming you have at least one line on your snake that can be used for an additonal send, and sufficient electrical power available for the additional amplifiers but know these could both be big problems for a short term fix if not available.

Configuration would be something like: connect one channel of the present Peavey amp and its flown speaker to the left send on your board pan the spoken word mics in your system fully left. Connect the new speaker processor/amps/speakers to the right send pan your worship teams mics and inputs fully right. Connect the other channel of the Peavey amp and the monitor speakers to Aux1 on your board selecting a prefader signal. Insert a DFR11EQ on the monitor channel (aux1), one on the left send to the flown speaker, and one on the right send if you can't locate a DFR22 to use as the system processor. From here it is up to the person you bring in for first time setup to decide where and in what configuration to place the new music reinforcement speakers, properly set up the system processor, outboard DFR units, gains on the  amplifiers, and train you on operation. The system will provide worship team music reinforcement through the new speaker system the levels will revert to normal through your existing spoken word system. If whoever sets this up is worth their salt the outcome should be respectable and your long term costs very low. Anything you buy now that doesn't fit in to the next permanent sound system design or doesn't serve an additional ministry opportunity(perhaps the grafted on gear becomes part of a truly portable system used for some outreach ministry?) can just be resold, probably for about what is paid for it.

David-

Ignore this nonsense.

If you need a sound system for Easter with no problems..... rent it.

Then find a qualifed design-build firm to help you come up with a practical and affordable system that meets your current needs and can be adapted (expanded) for your future needs.

Take your time.

Plan to pay a reasonable amount for truly professional and experienced advice.

And also plan to pay a fair price for new equipment with standard profesional audio warrantees. With all due respect, you do not want to be troubleshooting the system because it is built from used gear which has no warranty nor a system installer who can/will take responsibility for it.

Free advice from knuckleheads with maverick ideas and unsubstantiated equipment biases, a hopelessly inflated sense of what they think they know about electroacoustics and the pro audio market *not to mention* way too much free time on their hands is worth exactly what you have paid for it.

For your own good, run away from here.

Be well, young sir.

We'll clean up the mess.

[David Vercoe]

I would like to thank everyone here for your help that you have given I will take all pieces of advice to heart and se what we come up with as far as what is going on. Everyone here has helped a good bit with the limited info I am able to give based on what I know off the top of my head. When I can give full info info I will see if I can repost and see if I get more helpful help based on better info maybe take a picture tour or video tour and post the video on my YouTube channel and post the link for it. If  I go that route I will probably speak on the video and tell what everything is.
Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk

[BobWitte]

AMEN Tom!

David-

Ignore this nonsense.

If you need a sound system for Easter with no problems..... rent it.

Then find a qualifed design-build firm to help you come up with a practical and affordable system that meets your current needs and can be adapted (expanded) for your future needs.

Take your time.

Plan to pay a reasonable amount for truly professional and experienced advice.

And also plan to pay a fair price for new equipment with standard profesional audio warrantees. With all due respect, you do not want to be troubleshooting the system because it is built from used gear which has no warranty nor a system installer who can/will take responsibility for it.

Free advice from knuckleheads with maverick ideas and unsubstantiated equipment biases, a hopelessly inflated sense of what they think they know about electroacoustics and the pro audio market *not to mention* way too much free time on their hands is worth exactly what you have paid for it.

For your own good, run away from here.

Be well, young sir.

We'll clean up the mess.

[ProSoundWeb Community]