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Author Topic: Speaker system for Youth building  (Read 35395 times)

Kent Thompson

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Speaker system for Youth building
« on: February 16, 2012, 06:51:19 PM »

  I am looking into getting some new speakers for our youth.

I would like to have something pole mounted because hanging from the ceiling would be too costly (and I need some portability), with the ability to aim downward some. I will need sufficient subs to go with them.

My target db is around 100dba in a 50x60 room stage in the middle of the long end of course...

Floors are carpeted with commercial carpet the seating is in layers and starts 15’ from the stage, the floor is the first level the second level is 2' high the 3rd level is 5' high All the walls are sheet rock the roof is 25' high except the stage wall which only goes up 10-12'(This is a partition wall that splits a bigger room up). 

The room is fairly tame till you hit the back wall…I want to avoid as much of the back wall as possible so I was thinking of something with limited Vertical coverage. The system will on occasion be used in outreach meetings in other places, so there needs to be some portability to the system.

I will also need to power and process these speakers (this can be internal or external).

I have set a soft cap of about $10k I would like to stay under if possible. They do not need to be state of the art but, I do not want to put in junk either. It also needs to be able to hold up to youth abuse as well… The music type will be rock and roll with the drums and bass being run through the system.
 
 Any recommendations would be appreciated? The choices are dizzying now days.
 
 I have this suspicion that pole mounts might not be able to get the height I might need. Are there any other reasonable/semi portable ways of hanging without hanging from the ceiling? Some type of mini tower?
 
 Hopefully I have not forgotten anything.
 Thanks in advance
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:06:18 PM by Kent Thompson »
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Kyle Waters

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 11:25:16 PM »

JBl vrx or QSC kla's would be a good chioce, but you can throw that 10k cap out the window for those.
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Samuel Rees

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Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 04:25:24 AM »

To clarify, is it $10k for the speakers, power, processing and rigging? Or just speakers?
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Brad Weber

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 07:16:48 AM »

  I am looking into getting some new speakers for our youth.

I would like to have something pole mounted because hanging from the ceiling would be too costly (and I need some portability), with the ability to aim downward some. I will need sufficient subs to go with them.
Who would be setting this up and taking care of it?  There are some crank up stand type options but you'd need to have the space for them and you'd probably want to keep the area around the stands clear and off limits for the youth.  You would probably also want somebody who knows what they are doing and is responsible rigging the speakers and operating the stands, not kids playing with them. 

My target db is around 100dba in a 50x60 room stage in the middle of the long end of course...
Not that big a room, so hitting 100dBA may not be a problem - depending on what that means.  100dBA peak levels can be much different than 100dBA average levels and 100dBA with the entire band playing is different than 100dBA for just the bass or kick (the A-weighting alone could make a 25-30dB difference for the fundamentals).  But if you mean 100dBA peaks with everyone playing, that should not be a major challenge.

  The system will on occasion be used in outreach meetings in other places, so there needs to be some portability to the system.
Portable in what sense?  For example, would the speakers and stands have to fit in a van or someone's pickup truck?  Would all the amps and processing need to be in road cases?

  I will also need to power and process these speakers (this can be internal or external).

I have set a soft cap of about $10k I would like to stay under if possible. They do not need to be state of the art but, I do not want to put in junk either. It also needs to be able to hold up to youth abuse as well… The music type will be rock and roll with the drums and bass being run through the system.
As Samuel asked, is that $10k for the speakers or for the speakers, stands, amps, processing, cases, cables, etc. or for the entire system?
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 10:09:55 AM »

My target db is around 100dba in a 50x60 room stage in the middle of the long end of course...

The room is fairly tame till you hit the back wall…I want to avoid as much of the back wall as possible so I was thinking of something with limited Vertical coverage.

In addition to the questions posed by  others, you may want to allocate some funds towards treating the back wall, if it's a real issue.  Even if you can keep the mains off of it, drums and amps on stage and at youth group volumes, could still bring about the very issues you're trying to avoid.
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Bob L. Wilson

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:37 PM »

The system will on occasion be used in outreach meetings in other places, so there needs to be some portability to the system.

Strictly indoor use though, correct? Good performance outdoors is a horse of a different color.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 06:28:05 PM »

 

 Who would be setting this up and taking care of it? There are some crank up stand type options but you'd need to have the space for them and you'd probably want to keep the area around the stands clear and off limits for the youth.  You would probably also want somebody who knows what they are doing and is responsible rigging the speakers and operating the stands, not kids playing with them.

 
 This is why I would rather have tripods or poles if I could, it would be an added expense. I would have to hire someone to set it up and inspect and then train. That being said if you have any links to these stands where I could take a look at them I would appreciate it. That way I can figure out if it is practical or not.
 
 
Quote
Not that big a room, so hitting 100dBA may not be a problem - depending on what that means.  100dBA peak levels can be much different than 100dBA average levels and 100dBA with the entire band playing is different than 100dBA for just the bass or kick (the A-weighting alone could make a 25-30dB difference for the fundamentals).  But if you mean 100dBA peaks with everyone playing, that should not be a major challenge.

 
 Yeah when I put that number down I really did not think it through well enough. It is going to need to get loud enough to easily overcome loud youth drummers and guitar amps and such and get loud enough for them so they don’t destroy it by clipping it(because there is not a youth around that will listen to play softer :P) So I was thinking that would be getting close to 100dba. Reality may interfere with that number.
 
 
Quote
Portable in what sense?  For example, would the speakers and stands have to fit in a van or someone's pickup truck?  Would all the amps and processing need to be in road cases?

   

What I meant was something not permanently installed so we could if we needed to take it out somewhere and use it (this will not be often maybe once or twice a year). We have enough resources (cases, racks, trailers, vehicles) to package and get just about anything to and from where we want.
 
 
Quote
As Samuel asked, is that $10k for the speakers or for the speakers, stands, amps, processing, cases, cables, etc. or for the entire system?
 

 
 Speakers, processing, amps and poles or tripods are what I am looking at. We have a couple of old crowns (the model escapes me at the moment, I seem to remember them being about 700w per channel into 8ohms) we can reuse but, I would like to use them for monitors instead of the cheaper amps they are using now. We have a surplus of bulk speaker wire and xlr cables. This will not be included. We have more snakes and analog boards then we know what to do with…
 
 
Quote
In addition to the questions posed by others, you may want to allocate some funds towards treating the back wall, if it's a real issue.  Even if you can keep the mains off of it, drums and amps on stage and at youth group volumes, could still bring about the very issues you're trying to avoid.

 
 Something that will have to be done behind the mix position for sure. Where the kids sit it is not as bad because they absorb most of the bounce. This would be a separate project that would not be done with the funds I have available but, have no doubt something can be done about it. [rant] It doesn't help that the speakers they have now are the worse sounding speakers I have ever heard in my 53 years of existence...The wall just makes the bad sounding speakers sound worse...I would take an old pair of Kustom padded towers over them any day.[/rant]
 
 

 JBl vrx or QSC kla's would be a good chioce, but you can throw that 10k cap out the window for those.
 
Considering that I would have to use at least 2 per side (to get to about 30degrees) not including subs yeah…that’s around 8k before subs and I don’t want to go short there… That’s an issue most of the line arrays I have seen they are in the 10-15 v range and then there is the amps and processing…
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Kent Thompson

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 06:28:36 PM »

Strictly indoor use though, correct? Good performance outdoors is a horse of a different color.

Yes indoors.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 07:18:58 PM »

Yes indoors.

Hi, Kent.

What are the "worst sounding speakers" you ever heard?? That would tend to inform the choice of new ones.

Mike Pyle sells some "tilting" adaptors for tripod stands.  Some speakers such as QSC have a tilt mount option built in.  This would help you keep some of the sound off of the rear wall.  You can Google "crank up stands" and probably see what is available.  My opinion is that whether it is a crank-up stand or a "Tele-lock" type stand, a nice, wide footprint is really preferable.

As to "loudness":  there are a lot of affordable powered speakers that go pretty loud.  That said, almost anything capable of putting out 126dB SPL is going to make a lot of noise indoors.  The problem is to get that noise to be good sounding noise.  But with kids and DJ's, nothing is loud enough until the instant before it gets blown up.........

If you could find some QSC HPR speakers used (they're discontinued now) they're great sounding and extremely robust.  Very hard to blow up.

I wish I could come down and give you a hand.  Will do sound for good Mexican food........

DR
St Paul
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Stu McDoniel

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 08:20:17 PM »

  I am looking into getting some new speakers for our youth.

I would like to have something pole mounted because hanging from the ceiling would be too costly (and I need some portability), with the ability to aim downward some. I will need sufficient subs to go with them.

My target db is around 100dba in a 50x60 room stage in the middle of the long end of course...

Floors are carpeted with commercial carpet the seating is in layers and starts 15’ from the stage, the floor is the first level the second level is 2' high the 3rd level is 5' high All the walls are sheet rock the roof is 25' high except the stage wall which only goes up 10-12'(This is a partition wall that splits a bigger room up). 

The room is fairly tame till you hit the back wall…I want to avoid as much of the back wall as possible so I was thinking of something with limited Vertical coverage. The system will on occasion be used in outreach meetings in other places, so there needs to be some portability to the system.

I will also need to power and process these speakers (this can be internal or external).

I have set a soft cap of about $10k I would like to stay under if possible. They do not need to be state of the art but, I do not want to put in junk either. It also needs to be able to hold up to youth abuse as well… The music type will be rock and roll with the drums and bass being run through the system.
 
 Any recommendations would be appreciated? The choices are dizzying now days.
 
 I have this suspicion that pole mounts might not be able to get the height I might need. Are there any other reasonable/semi portable ways of hanging without hanging from the ceiling? Some type of mini tower?
 
 Hopefully I have not forgotten anything.
 Thanks in advance
There are Horns designed for good coverage when above the head in a club or room on a speaker stand.   I will post a link to a Mackie Thump two way powered loudspeaker.  If you will take notice the bottom of the horn curve.
This horn design is so you dont have to angle the cab down on the tripod speaker stand.
I think there is several brand loudspeakers that use this horn design. 
10k is way beyond what you need to spend honestly.

Picture of a Mackie Thump
http://www.mackie.com/products/th-15a/photos/th15a-front.jpg

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Re: Speaker system for Youth building
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 08:20:17 PM »


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