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[Eric J Mcclure]

Hi, I'm new to posting on here but have always read the forum for some time now. I'm looking for some advice from some of you out there that have more experience than me. A quick background on me. I'm an electrician by trade, and have been the head of our sound team at our church for about six years now.
I'm currently doing some wiring for another church in town that has just purchased a new facility. There plans are to flip the current sanctuary from one end to the other (which is what we are wiring for). I've volunteered to work with them on setting up they're sound reinforcement in a more permanent setting. I'm looking for some input for placement of their mains. The sanctuary is quite narrow and long. I'll try to get some measurements. I'll post a pic and give out what they have for equipment.
They run a A&H GL2400, two DB tech' opera 415's, no DSP, or main EQ. Hopefully I can get them into some processing.
Thanks for any input
Eric McClure
So looking at this photo remember that the stage will end up at the opposite end.

[Brad Weber]

Unfortunately, dB Technologies seems to have virtually disowned that series of speakers.  They were replaced by the Opera D series, for which there is no 415 model, and none of the Opera Lyric series are listed on dB Technologies' web site as current or discontinued products.  A search of their site for "415" finds nothing relevant.

The most information I can find on the existing speakers is http://www.directproaudio.com/images/products/opera_e.pdf, but that doesn't help much other than suggest it may be a nominal 90x60 horn.  It does not address what mount provisions are incorporated, although it obviously has a pole mount as they are currently using that.

Quite frankly, with that room it looks like the choices may be limited.  And without any information on mounting options for the speakers it looks like floor standing or pole mount are the only viable options.  The one exception might be something like wall mounted pole mounts such as these, http://www.onstagestands.com/catalog/home/browse/grp/GRP000029, http://www.quiklok.com/catalog/?p=productsMore&iProduct=207&sName=QL-90, http://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PSTND7/Pair-Of-Wall-Mount-Speaker-Bracket-With-Adjustable-Lock, http://www.pyleaudio.com/sku/PSTND6/Wall-Mount-Speaker-Bracket-(Pair) or http://www.peavey.com/search.cfm?term=wall+mount.

If they would consider different speakers then you could probably find a single horizontal format box or a box with a rotatable horn that might work if flown in the center where there is a higher ceiling.

Just out of curiosity, but with the ceiling, windows and what appear to be the main entry doors all defining the current layout with the stage where it is, what is justifying moving all the stage provisions, dealing with the access and exiting issues, etc.?  Are they pretty much gutting the room because if so that may allow some other options.

[michael sveda]

A flown center cluster would be ideal with some floor mounted subs using a processor to set time alignment and crossover.

[Bob L. Wilson]

Plastic speakers most definitely have their place but being mounted as permanent mains isn't it. The reason plastic speaker housings exist at all are light weight, impervious to road abuse, and cheap to manufacture none of those are positives for a permanent install. Since this church has purchased their own facility I advocate for some install grade speakers. This site like every other church sound website has many members who post and recommend only new current product. I think top quality used gear starting with the transducers on both ends of the signal chain and working in almost always provides better sound per dollar spent. In specificity Community CSV and CPL series speakers make excellent house mains there are some CSV52 for left and right and a CSV25 for center on Ebay right now. EV FR12-2 are another great option their excellent fidelity however has been discovered by home audiophiles and they have driven up the price of them now. Companies like Community, Electrovoice, and EAW have designed and produced a lot of quality products specifically for the HOW market over the years and they all still provide parts and support for speakers they built decades ago. They also provide clear and complete archived information about their products allowing one to make better decisions about where/how to install, true power ratings, output levels, frequency response graphs, etc, etc etc. My low buck good sounding high intelligibility system would be something like those three CSV speakers, and a single 18" subwoofer in a big box under the stage firing out the front, something like the EV TL3512. They can be had at a good price as many were sold to churches and movie theaters. The box is big and heavy so people never buy them to make portable subs out of keeping prices low and for a permanent install size and weight are non issues.  Total cost for speakers $1000. For low buck power I recommend three Crown Com-Tech 800 or 810 amps. One in stereo on the CSV52, one bridged mono for the sub, and another in stereo with one channel on the center CSV25 with a spare left over to drive a monitor send. Total cost for all three plus a used BSS crossover $1500. Board they have is fine they need main and monitor EQ and feedback elimination I like the ease of use and sound of the Shure stuff so I am going to recommend a Shure DFR22 they go for a round $300 used. Add $700 for floor boxes, snake, interconnects etc and for $3500 they will have a system that will be center anchored with high intelligibility for the spoken word, and play loud and low in that room. Community, EV and Shure will be around for years to come all have competent parts and service departments.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

A flown center cluster would be ideal with some floor mounted subs using a processor to set time alignment and crossover.

A single flown speaker, not a "cluster".  Even a cabinet with a 60 degree horn will do.  I'm guessing from the picture that something with a 70 degree HF pattern would be about ideal in the center.  Multiple speakers in a "cluster" will engender way too many reflections in such a narrow space.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Plastic speakers most definitely have their place but being mounted as permanent mains isn't it. The reason plastic speaker housings exist at all are light weight, impervious to road abuse, and cheap to manufacture none of those are positives for a permanent install.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would say that none of the above makes any difference whatsoever.  The material in the cabinet in no way disqualifies it from any specific use as long as they are rated to be flown.

Since this church has purchased their own facility I advocate for some install grade speakers. This site like every other church sound website has many members who post and recommend only new current product. I think top quality used gear starting with the transducers on both ends of the signal chain and working in almost always provides better sound per dollar spent. In specificity Community CSV and CPL series speakers make excellent house mains there are some CSV52 for left and right and a CSV25 for center on Ebay right now. EV FR12-2 are another great option their excellent fidelity however has been discovered by home audiophiles and they have driven up the price of them now. Companies like Community, Electrovoice, and EAW have designed and produced a lot of quality products specifically for the HOW market over the years and they all still provide parts and support for speakers they built decades ago. They also provide clear and complete archived information about their products allowing one to make better decisions about where/how to install, true power ratings, output levels, frequency response graphs, etc, etc etc. My low buck good sounding high intelligibility system would be something like those three CSV speakers, and a single 18" subwoofer in a big box under the stage firing out the front, something like the EV TL3512. They can be had at a good price as many were sold to churches and movie theaters. The box is big and heavy so people never buy them to make portable subs out of keeping prices low and for a permanent install size and weight are non issues.  Total cost for speakers $1000. For low buck power I recommend three Crown Com-Tech 800 or 810 amps. One in stereo on the CSV52, one bridged mono for the sub, and another in stereo with one channel on the center CSV25 with a spare left over to drive a monitor send. Total cost for all three plus a used BSS crossover $1500. Board they have is fine they need main and monitor EQ and feedback elimination I like the ease of use and sound of the Shure stuff so I am going to recommend a Shure DFR22 they go for a round $300 used. Add $700 for floor boxes, snake, interconnects etc and for $3500 they will have a system that will be center anchored with high intelligibility for the spoken word, and play loud and low in that room. Community, EV and Shure will be around for years to come all have competent parts and service departments.

Yes, used quality gear has its advantages.  New equipment, however, carries a warranty and can be had for not much more than good used.  And with used you get the gear PLUS whatever issues it has picked up over the years.  If you have the technical chops to repair the used gear, then you're ahead of the game.  If not, well.....not so much.

Bottom line is that it comes down to being on-site and knowing the local market for gear.  You can recommend this or that piece of gear, but there's nothing better than first-hand experience of the room, the musicians and the needs and desires of the congregation.  So I'd stick to simply recommending the most probable techniques and let the specific gear be dictated by that.

Remember:

Less is more.....

[Brad Weber]

A flown center cluster would be ideal with some floor mounted subs using a processor to set time alignment and crossover.

Plastic speakers most definitely have their place but being mounted as permanent mains isn't it. The reason plastic speaker housings exist at all are light weight, impervious to road abuse, and cheap to manufacture none of those are positives for a permanent install. Since this church has purchased their own facility I advocate for some install grade speakers. This site like every other church sound website has many members who post and recommend only new current product. I think top quality used gear starting with the transducers on both ends of the signal chain and working in almost always provides better sound per dollar spent. In specificity Community CSV and CPL series speakers make excellent house mains there are some CSV52 for left and right and a CSV25 for center on Ebay right now. EV FR12-2 are another great option their excellent fidelity however has been discovered by home audiophiles and they have driven up the price of them now. Companies like Community, Electrovoice, and EAW have designed and produced a lot of quality products specifically for the HOW market over the years and they all still provide parts and support for speakers they built decades ago. They also provide clear and complete archived information about their products allowing one to make better decisions about where/how to install, true power ratings, output levels, frequency response graphs, etc, etc etc. My low buck good sounding high intelligibility system would be something like those three CSV speakers, and a single 18" subwoofer in a big box under the stage firing out the front, something like the EV TL3512. They can be had at a good price as many were sold to churches and movie theaters. The box is big and heavy so people never buy them to make portable subs out of keeping prices low and for a permanent install size and weight are non issues.  Total cost for speakers $1000. For low buck power I recommend three Crown Com-Tech 800 or 810 amps. One in stereo on the CSV52, one bridged mono for the sub, and another in stereo with one channel on the center CSV25 with a spare left over to drive a monitor send. Total cost for all three plus a used BSS crossover $1500. Board they have is fine they need main and monitor EQ and feedback elimination I like the ease of use and sound of the Shure stuff so I am going to recommend a Shure DFR22 they go for a round $300 used. Add $700 for floor boxes, snake, interconnects etc and for $3500 they will have a system that will be center anchored with high intelligibility for the spoken word, and play loud and low in that room. Community, EV and Shure will be around for years to come all have competent parts and service departments.

Why the discussion of subwoofers, LCR systems, monitors, floor boxes, snakes, new speakers and electronics, etc.?  From the pictures, there seem to be no mics on the drums, I don't see a bass rig and I see what may be one floor monitor.  There does not seem to have been any information provided regarding the types of services nor any mention of problems or deficiencies with the existing system.  In fact all that seemed to asked was for suggestions on how to permanently mount the existing speakers when they move the stage.

Bob, I agree that there can be differences between install and portable/MI boxes, but can you explain why you consider a decent quality plastic box as not being install worthy but do recommend discontinued, MI quality, veneered particle board boxes for which the manufacturer does not provide the technical information you noted?   And is there a reason for the apparent avoidance of any products that are currently in production?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

can you explain why you consider a decent quality plastic box as not being install worthy but do recommend discontinued, MI quality, veneered particle board boxes for which the manufacturer does not provide the technical information you noted? 

Straight to (and from) the heart..........

[Bob L. Wilson]

Baloney! More specific is more. I gave the poster an example of how specific used gear that I have used and know sounds good and is on the market today can be integrated into a high quality system at very low cost. He probably isn't going to buy the exact pieces I mentioned but I was trying to stimulate him to think outside the realm of new gear. I mentioned all the parts of a basic install as it wasn't clear the poster was aware of them. We don't know what we don't know, as it were. As for Community, EV, Crown, BSS and Shure not providing complete information I beg to differ:

http://communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/discontinued/csv52.pdf

http://communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/discontinued/csv25.pdf

http://communitypro.com/files/literature/manuals/discontinued/csx_vman.pdf

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/TL3512%20EDS.pdf

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/k80636.pdf

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_dfr22_hardware_en_ug.pdf

http://www.bssaudio.com/product_downloads/User_Manuals/fds310um.pdf

Community CSV are excellent speakers we still have and use a pair of CSV35 in one of our youth rooms. I will grant you that the MDF bracing and glue joints that make for nice dense cabinets devoid of resonances in the audible range makes them heavy and not mechancally durable enough for road use. They have no bad habits and will need very little EQ in most rooms, and with Community's light bulb based overload protection circuit on board even an inexperieiced operator will be able to tell when to knock it off.  Plastic cabinets are the opposite their one piece molded bodies are nice and light to schlep around but that relative lack of mass means they do have resonances in the audible range. I have used EV SX500 and ZX5A, JBL EON1500, RCF ART312 they all have frequencies they don't play nice with. I have heard powered Mackie, Behringer and Peavey but was not in command so I can not lay the nastiness I heard entirely on these speakers without first hand operational knowledge, could have been other gear in the signal chain or even pilot error. 

New products almost never represent the optimum point on a matrix that seeks to minimze cost, while maximizing function and reliability. Which is why my son is driving around in a three year old VW Jetta TDI with it's top IIHS crash ratings instead of a new KIA with its ten year warranty eventhough the Kia could have been had for not much more than the Jetta.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Baloney!

Some attitude there, Robert.  Brad does not dish out baloney.  Neither does he reply in such a rude fashion.  You're entitled to your opinion on stuff, but beyond that you need to take it easy.   You're debating with a top industry pro in Mr Weber.  He has tolerated many such as you and in the end his patience, knowledge and vast experience will tell.

 For me, I choose to invoke the Iggy List option.  Your diatribes are already tiresome and of questionable value.

[ProSoundWeb Community]