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Author Topic: Controlling drum sub bleed  (Read 5864 times)

Aaron M. Kovacik

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Controlling drum sub bleed
« on: December 18, 2011, 05:14:36 PM »

So about a year ago I started using a Yamaha Subkick as the outside mic on my kits. I love the low end it produces and while it is most certainly not the only option for kick out, I do very much enjoy the noise it makes. This was all fine and good until the drummer decided he'd love to have a double 18" drum sub. My subkick noise which had been punchy and subby, all of a sudden became very boomy from all the sub bleed, and gating it as hard as needed to tighten it back up caused the gate to click. Normally my first approach to fixing this would be speaker placement....but as the double 18 is for all intents and purposes omni, that doesn't help so much in this situation. The next option is of course is changing the kick mic, and while this is an option I don't mind too much, I was just curious if anyone had any other ideas on controlling the sub bleed. Has anyone tried cardioid sub arrangements for drummers? I know the normal use of cardioid is noise rejection off the back of the array, but has anyone used it for narrowing the coverage of an array? If worst comes to worst, it'll be just awful torture to dust off my D6 :-p
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Scott Shaw

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 05:51:10 PM »

I think it's a little selfish for him to have a 2 18 cab for a monitor! He needs a wedge on the floor, and a Butt Kicker mounted to his throne.
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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 06:34:30 PM »

I think it's a little selfish for him to have a 2 18 cab for a monitor! He needs a wedge on the floor, and a Butt Kicker mounted to his throne.

Not uncommon and not selfish.  We very frequently provide 2X18" subs for the drummers fill.  If that is what they want to use so they can play at their highest level then there is nothing wrong with that!

For the OP, are you running the drum sub as a separate aux?  If so, try using only one mic or the other in the drum sub to see if that helps out a little bit.  Also, try changing the polarity on the drum sub.  I have never used a subkick with a drum sub at the same time so just a couple ideas that may or may not help.  Also maybe try a little higher HPF on the drum sub so he still gets that chest pump but not the super low end boom.
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Ned Ward

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 06:35:58 PM »

I think this is why most people don't use a Sub Kick for loud bands - they don't mix with 2-18 drum subs. Get used to your D6 or any other flavor of kick mic, but the sub kick is the wrong kick drum mic for your current application.

Since I use a D6 for our drummer, I'd hardly consider it torture...
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Aaron M. Kovacik

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 07:19:33 PM »

Not uncommon and not selfish.  We very frequently provide 2X18" subs for the drummers fill.  If that is what they want to use so they can play at their highest level then there is nothing wrong with that!

For the OP, are you running the drum sub as a separate aux?  If so, try using only one mic or the other in the drum sub to see if that helps out a little bit.  Also, try changing the polarity on the drum sub.  I have never used a subkick with a drum sub at the same time so just a couple ideas that may or may not help.  Also maybe try a little higher HPF on the drum sub so he still gets that chest pump but not the super low end boom.

Hey Ryan, thanks for the reply

My monitor engineer does run the sub on its own mix, separate from the drum wedge. I've had him try using just the inside mic (beta 91) and it still causes issues. Will definitely try out the reverse polarity and HPF.

 
Since I use a D6 for our drummer, I'd hardly consider it torture...
Ned, the torture comment was just tongue in cheek, the D6 is a fine mic that I am more than happy using.

Thanks,
Aaron
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Scott Bolt

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 07:45:05 PM »

The click is caused by the gate attack being set too fast (that is my guess in any case).  Try raising the time a bit and see if it doesn't go away.

There is no way to keep things from being boomy if the entire stage is covered with kick drum.  See if you can get the drummer to use in-ears instead of speaker monitors.  There is simply no way to keep the boom sound out of the vocal microphones and other mics all over the stage with such huge bottom saturating the entire stage area.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »

So about a year ago I started using a Yamaha Subkick ....... and gating it as hard as needed to tighten it back up caused the gate to click.

What are you using for gating?  Outboard or digital desk?
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 09:40:42 PM »

So about a year ago I started using a Yamaha Subkick as the outside mic on my kits. I love the low end it produces and while it is most certainly not the only option for kick out, I do very much enjoy the noise it makes. This was all fine and good until the drummer decided he'd love to have a double 18" drum sub. My subkick noise which had been punchy and subby, all of a sudden became very boomy from all the sub bleed, and gating it as hard as needed to tighten it back up caused the gate to click. Normally my first approach to fixing this would be speaker placement....but as the double 18 is for all intents and purposes omni, that doesn't help so much in this situation. The next option is of course is changing the kick mic, and while this is an option I don't mind too much, I was just curious if anyone had any other ideas on controlling the sub bleed. Has anyone tried cardioid sub arrangements for drummers? I know the normal use of cardioid is noise rejection off the back of the array, but has anyone used it for narrowing the coverage of an array? If worst comes to worst, it'll be just awful torture to dust off my D6 :-p


Can you change the double 18" sub to two single 18" subs?  If you can it would be possible to set up the cabinets in such a relationship to eachother that there is very little sub energy in some places, and a lot in other places.
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Aaron M. Kovacik

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 10:11:37 PM »

What are you using for gating?  Outboard or digital desk?

I am using the onboard gates in a Yamaha PM5D.


Can you change the double 18" sub to two single 18" subs?  If you can it would be possible to set up the cabinets in such a relationship to eachother that there is very little sub energy in some places, and a lot in other places.

I like this idea....probably should have occurred to me earlier. We don't have any singles on hand....but I'm sure I can snag a pair to try it out with.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 10:13:13 PM by Aaron M. Kovacik »
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Cosmo

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 10:59:48 PM »



Also try to de-couple the eighteens from the stage as much as possible.  All that extra boom is not helping anything.  I have found that the rubber-backed carpets used for entry mats work ok if you can get several.  (Just use the spares, not ones already in use in the foyer...  8)  )

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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.  Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away.  - H.D. Thoreau

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Re: Controlling drum sub bleed
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 10:59:48 PM »


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