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Author Topic: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures  (Read 48123 times)

Mark Monson

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Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« on: December 13, 2011, 02:37:23 PM »

Thanks again to all of the knowledgeable people who unselfishly share their knowledge and experience.  I am looking at buying subs for my classic rock band PA.  "Back in the day" all of the high end subs were in folded horn or other type of enclosures "tuned" to amplify lower frequencies.  Now it seems that half of the high end subs are in direct radiator cabinets.  The direct radiator subs would certainly be easier to transport and store, but I would not want to sacrifice a significant amount of sound quality.  What are the pros and cons of sub enclosures?
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Tom Young

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2011, 03:53:40 PM »

Thanks again to all of the knowledgeable people who unselfishly share their knowledge and experience.  I am looking at buying subs for my classic rock band PA.  "Back in the day" all of the high end subs were in folded horn or other type of enclosures "tuned" to amplify lower frequencies.  Now it seems that half of the high end subs are in direct radiator cabinets.  The direct radiator subs would certainly be easier to transport and store, but I would not want to sacrifice a significant amount of sound quality.  What are the pros and cons of sub enclosures?

You are right that (in most cases) a folded horn has a larger footprint than a typical direct radiating subwoofer. In cases where a folded horn is not larger (or is not much larger) than say a dual 18" DR sub, the folded horn is likely to be compromised and does not behave fully as a bass horn.

Back in the day (which you refer to) "we" often preferred folded horns because they provided more acoustic outut (within their passband) and (just as likely) the DR subwoofer drivers simply ran out of steam. Sometime during the late 1980's, cone drivers began to become available with greater power handling and slightly higher sensitivity. At the same time, power amps were developed with significantly greater output. So we began to introduce (or observe others who began to use) direct radiating subwoofer systems that could get as loud (or loud enough) as our folded horns had and they took up less truck, van and stage space *and* went lower. We began to experience and appreciate life below 50Hz  ;D

One of the sonic characteristics which almost all folded horns exhibited was compression. Which makes sense when you consider that sound is being squeezed into a small throat and then allowed to expand as the flare travels (expands) through the enclosure and exits via the mouth. Horn Theory 101.

When we tranistioned to DR subs, I was in love with the extended LF response (this was also when 5-string basses became a significant trend, thus response went down to 32Hz) and smaller size plus the lower load impedance to the amplifiers. But I also missed the very nice, acoustic/mechanical compression which tightened up the kick drum and bass (slapped or plucked/walking). 

Over time I guess I got used to DR subs and relied more on electronic compression to get what we wanted. Alot of people did this.

There are folded horns available now which, for all intents and purposes, go as low as DR subs ....... or low enough. Tom Danley's tapped horns come immediatley to my mind. But they still have to follow the rules (laws of physics) and are larger than most dual 18" DR enclosures will be. The LAB Sub is an iteration of Danley's design philosphy and seems to work in much the same way as their tapped horns do.

It would be intersting to calculate and compare the footprint of a DR subwoofer system versus (say) one with Danley tapped horns (or other folded horn systems) where each provide the same acoustic output and low frequency limit. And also compare cost.

I believe that DR sub systems are still used more widely at all levels of the industry (including installed systems) than folded horns. But perhaps not by a huge margin. And I, for one, strongly believe that the new breeds of well-designed bass horns have their place.

In your own search for an appropriate subwoofer it is likely that a DR will suit you best. There are a lot of very good devices out there. And there's a good amount of crap. In my experience, cost is a huge factor. There simply are no (comparative) "bargains" when it comes to moving lots of air while being reliable and sounding good.

Try before you buy.

Hopefully this somewhat helps to answer your query.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 07:18:49 PM by Tom Young »
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Tom Young
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duane massey

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 06:16:33 PM »

Tom, that was a very well-thought response, one of the best I've seen here.
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Duane Massey
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Mark Long

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 07:45:09 PM »

Tom, that was a very well-thought response, one of the best I've seen here.
Totally agree. Thanks Tom for a retrospective that was very helpful in filling in some gaps for me.
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Tom Young

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »

Totally agree. Thanks Tom for a retrospective that was very helpful in filling in some gaps for me.

Thanks, guys !

Glad to post on this subject and that it provided something useful.

I hope others chime in.
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Tom Young
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Bill Hornibrook

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 09:11:40 PM »

There's a sub line out there from Yorkville that's actually a little bit of both designs: the rear loaded quasi-horn LS808/801p. They are a little boomy but that's a positive in my book for classic rock. The most popular classic rock band in my area uses four of these babies, and I can't think a better sub for those guys. They make kick hits sound like cannons going off.

Anyway, I'd definitely put them on your shopping list. A good sub for this intended purpose.
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Scott Bolt

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 10:53:02 PM »

Thanks again to all of the knowledgeable people who unselfishly share their knowledge and experience.  I am looking at buying subs for my classic rock band PA.  "Back in the day" all of the high end subs were in folded horn or other type of enclosures "tuned" to amplify lower frequencies.  Now it seems that half of the high end subs are in direct radiator cabinets.  The direct radiator subs would certainly be easier to transport and store, but I would not want to sacrifice a significant amount of sound quality.  What are the pros and cons of sub enclosures?

I have a pair of Cerwin Vega LR36 folded horns which I power with a Crown K2 amp.  When I purchased these (over 10 years ago now), there wasn't anything out there that could put out the volume of bass that was anywhere near their price or size (I did like the JBL SR double 18's better, but you really had to have a road crew to move those things).

I am currently using a pair of CVA118 subs and a pair of DSR112's over the top. 

The CVA's are not anywhere near what is possible out there today; however, they do fine for crowds of <200 indoors.  I only use the folded horns for outdoor gigs or larger venues ..... and that isn't very often.

A pair of more modern powered DR speakers like the JBL PRX618 XLF's would be pretty ideal for most bar crowds.  The LS801P mentioned above absolutely thunders. 

I have actually grown to like the sound of DR better.  It seems ..... tighter to my ear.  The folded horns seem a bit (this is going to sound funny) woofey ;)

I sure don't miss moving the folded horns and that amp rack :)
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Mark Monson

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 01:12:28 PM »

Tom

You are an example of what makes this forum great.  That was a thorough, well thought out answer that really helps.  As an old guy I can show some of the young bucks that what I used to do still has some value.

Mark
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Tom Stone

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 08:50:54 PM »

No expert here but don't folded horn subs push the bulk of the air in one direction so if you standing by side of the sub 20ft away vs being in front of the it 20ft there's huge volume difference?

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 09:27:01 PM »

No expert here but don't folded horn subs push the bulk of the air in one direction so if you standing by side of the sub 20ft away vs being in front of the it 20ft there's huge volume difference?
It depends on the freq in question, the size of the cabinet etc.

And how much is a "huge" difference?  6dB 10dB 20dB?

There can be some directivity-depending on various factors.

Remember that large waveforms are harder to "control" than smaller waveforms.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Direct versus Folded Horn Sub enclosures
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 09:27:01 PM »


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